Bushmaster-TG123 debate

[TG123]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Yes, we defend so you can continue to worship in peace, travel, learn, enjoy life in peace. I believe the very reason you questioned muslims in this thread is due to their inconsistent scriptures and violence that is brought along... Absolutely no friendly forces engaged right now would want to shoot civilians, trust me.
​

I respect that you want to defend me, Bushmaster. However, US foreign policy (which sometimes involves the US military) often takes away the rights you’ve mentioned from other people. The invasion and occupation of Iraq deprived tens of thousands Iraqis of their lives, homes, and jobs. Human rights groups who have spoken out time and time again about Saddam report that the situation for most Iraqis has gotten much worse, not better.
Are North American lives more valuable than the lives of people in Iraq? Should their suffering be the price of our security? If it is, then I don’t think our safety is worth it.
I do find many inconsistencies in Islamic teachings and in the Quran and this thread began as a dialogue with Muslims. I am glad to be having this discussion with you.
Although I believe you that most coalition soldiers don’t want to hurt civilians, unfortunately they often do. Tens of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans have been killed in airstrikes. There have also been many cases I’ve read about that involved coalition forces abusing Iraqis and Afghans, so there are definitely those who do take pleasure in that as well. While some airstrikes could be seen as accidents, the beatings at checkpoints that Joshua Keys describes in his book can’t be explained away as “accidents”.
This is one reason why I believe war is terrible and something that Christians should always be working to stop. It causes otherwise decent people to do terrible things. It dehumanizes both them and the people they are victimizing.



Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

I think your interpretation of this verse might be a little off. Remember, the Pharisees is testing and trying to tempt the Lord, asking if they should pay taxes, if it is lawful... Response is as you know. If he had said "no," they expected to denounce him to the Roman governor as teaching sedition. If he had said "yes," they expected it would destroy his influence, as the people hated the Romans and the tribute. I don't think Lord is tying to conditions together. Taxes and all that duties belong to government, pay those to government. But our individual spiritual dues are to God. If that makes sense to you. Pretty much the conclusion is drawn from their own premises. You acknowledge this to be Caesar’s coin; this coin is current, in your land; the currency of this coin shows the country to be under the Roman government; and your acknowledgment that it is Caesar’s proves you have submitted. Don’t therefore be unjust; but render to Caesar the things which you acknowledge to be his; at the same time, be not impious, but render unto God the thing’s which belong to God. Obedience in moral and spiritual things. Faith, love, obedience and liberal giving for God's work.
​

I hear what you are saying, but I think that you just listed another reason why Christians should not go to war. As you said, taxes and other duties belong to the government but spiritual duties belong to God. Obedience to God as you correctly say means obedience in moral and spiritual things like faith, love, obedience and liberal giving for God’s work.
Let’s look at the topic of going to war. When we go to war, we go to kill our enemies. We are told there are people who want or are planning to kill us and so we must kill them. Jesus however tells us that we need to pray for such people and bless them and show them love. This is an issue of obedience. By obeying the government’s call to go to war, we are disobeying Jesus.
I fail to see how it is possible to love someone who you are trying to shoot or take out with a missile. You simply can’t. You cannot love a person and at the same time try to kill them. So by engaging in war, a person fails to render to God another moral and spiritual thing, love.
By going to war or supporting it, a person supports the transition of billions of dollars to keep our military in “top form”. That money could have been used to help feed hungry people in America and developing countries. It could have been used to build better schools. It could have been used to help develop research for cures for diseases that kill millions. Instead of giving money to advance God’s work (because He calls on Christians to help the poor), we are giving it to kill our enemies.

I’ve just listed three examples in which engaging (and I don’t just mean fighting, I also mean supporting) war renders unto Caesar things which you have just said belong to God.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Possible. I have seen worse, it is war and it is ugly. I wish there were never wars. Though I realize that our freedoms indeed need to be protected.
​

Should the cost of our freedom be the lives of innocent people in other lands?

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

It is commendable.
​

Thank you.



Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

I agree. There will be disagreements, but we can not riot against authority, that would go against what we believe. Most in the Armed Forces did NOT vote for the current President, but he is still our commander.
​

I don’t think that rioting is OK, but civil disobedience and speaking out is. By preaching the Gospel, Jesus’ disciples were disobeying laws passed by the Romans and Pharisees that clearly made such talk illegal.
You say that most soldiers did not vote for Obama but he is your president. So would you follow him no matter what?
What if he ordered you to bomb Israel? Or begin to arrest pastors who denounce gay marriage? Or to put Republican Americans in prison camps?
I believe these scenarios are extremely unlikely but the question still stands. Would you follow his orders in these cases? And would you stand by and do nothing to protest if other American soldiers did?

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

If I was ever captured, I wouldn't deny my faith either.
​

That makes 2 of us.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Right. But prison at that time would not be evil?
​

It would be the price exacted by an evil institution for following God. I would pay it.



Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

I don't know. Tradition of the Church suggests that Pontius Pilate converted to Christianity but sources on this are weak. Though remember Christ told him that he had no authority over Him except whatever was given to him from above. I don't think Christ would have approved any religious practice that undermined His Father, however their meeting was not in such context, Christ was tried and sentenced by Pilate, who was unaware who Christ really was.
​

Right. Jesus’ discussion with Pilate was not about whether or not polytheism is acceptable. Likewise His discussion with the centurion was not about whether or not it is a good thing to be a soldier. Jesus neither commended or condemned his service in the army, He healed his dying slave because the centurion believed.
I found an interesting commentary about that event here: http://www.ecapc.org/articles/RensbeD_HS1_Centurion.asp



Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Well certainly we don't serve in the military because we want revenge or we want to pay evil with evil.
​

Hold on. Wasn’t Afghanistan bombed “in response to 9/11”? Didn’t Bush say he wanted to punish the perpetrators of the attacks- to “smoke them out of their holes”?
Of course America wanted revenge for the 9/11 attacks. That was made very clear throughout the whole Afghan campaign.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

You also need to consider God's sovereignty in this matter. In combat, if an unbeliever was killed, it didn't happen without God's knowledge. Unbeliever could have chosen by his freewill to be at a different place, seeking God. But he too chose to fight for the political or his religious ideals.
​

But we will answer for our actions, not theirs. God is indeed sovereign and His will be always done. But it doesn’t excuse us from being obedient to Him.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

I am also seeing that you do belong to an evangelical protestant denomination? We are going to differ in some doctrinal aspects.
​

LOL that’s OK. I like debates and many people in my church (a non-denominational congregation but evangelical in many ways so you can call them that) don’t agree with all my views either. I used to be a Roman Catholic Christian, now I am a Protestant Christian. You are an Orthodox Christian?

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Oh now I remember. It has been more than 5 years since the first exchange.
​

Good times. J

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Unfortunately, I would not want Scriptures be used to define politics, men are corrupt, and they would apply God's law in a corrupt way...
​

I can try to stay away from politics, at least in my discussions with you. I do however think that our faith should be part of every aspect of our lives, and that includes politics. We shouldn’t be “Sunday Christians”.

 

[TG123]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Do you believe that if we do not hold and defend our freedoms, one day the forces of evil would try to erase Christianity from the face of earth?
​

I don’t believe that the US or Canadian army is defending Christianity. It is fighting for Western interests abroad. Even if it was defending the West from attack, there is a very big difference between our culture and Christianity.
Even if the forces of evil tried to erase Christianity from the face of the earth, they would not succeed. God’s church has withstood centuries of persecution and in fact persecution actually always made the church stronger.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

He even has a name, but I can't remember that right now. Early Church passed on these traditions so we know.
​

Get back to me on that, I look forward to hearing more.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

We should have this verse expounded by a theologian because we are seeing two different things, we shouldn't. Like when you are serving your country, you give your dues to your government. Police, fire, emt, soldier etc. While doing that, you also pay your dues to God, having a relationship with Him, through prayer and supplication, that is giving to God, what's God's. That is what I see.
​

Fair enough, I have to say I disagree. I think that when we disobey God we are not giving our dues to Him.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

This is awesome. I do have a heart to reach out to people too. I believe though from where I am to where I am going, God has a plan.
​

Sounds awesome, may God bless you in that. I went for a 2 week missions trip to El Salvador in 2006 where we did prison ministry, it was awesome. I’m not in a developing country at the moment but I teach in a Christian school that is located in the inner city and reaches out to disadvantaged kids. We have really low pay and little support or resources but are able to share the Gospel with kids who couldn’t afford to go to most Christian private schools.



Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

If the situation arises and to protect you, I choose to give my life, do you think that is wrong?
​

First of all, thank you for offering your life for mine. That is very courageous. I would not think it would be wrong or immoral of you to protect me if I was in danger but I certainly wouldn’t want you or anyone else to.
First of all, I honestly believe your life is worth more than mine. You are married and I am going to assume you have a loving wife and maybe kids who you mean the entire world to. She (or they) need you, you have a ministry that is in the home as much as in the field.
I love my girlfriend, but we are not married and so I am still single. When I go into a conflict zone, I will be going with the full knowledge that I may be kidnapped, tortured, or killed. Christian Peacemaker Teams has a form of consent that actually states that the person signing it acknowledges these risks. It also states that CPT does not pay ransom to kidnappers and that at the same time it discourages military action being used to free the hostage. I know that I will be taking my life into God’s hands if I go. You may look on this as irresponsible and naïve but I am going to be going fully aware of the risks.
I would not want you or anyone to use military force to free me because it would be terrible if you or any other soldier died- or had to kill- for my freedom. I believe that war goes against God’s intentions for what He wants of us and so if you or anyone else would fight for my freedom I believe I would be partially responsible for you breaking His will for you as a Christian. Following God is more important than anything, and certainly more than my life. I am not worthy of your life or of the life of anyone else.
Actually, if anyone tried to kidnap me I would struggle and resist and be the most problematic hostage they ever tried to take. Kidnapping is not an easy business and needs to be done quietly and efficiently. Most hostages who resist are left alone or killed within the first few minutes of encounter. If I were to be somehow taken, I would always be trying to escape and would not co-operate with my captors. They would have to either let me go or slit my throat or shoot me. Either way I would be free.
I wouldn’t allow myself to be taken alive partially to avoid good people like you risking their lives to free me and partially because I couldn’t live with my parents getting a phone call from some militant asking for money or else they are going to kill me.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Do you know why?
​

Because back then God wanted people to conquer their enemies. He doesn’t anymore. Now He calls on us to love them. He is God and He is always right.

Originally Posted by Bushmaster78FS

Thank you for that.
​

Anytime my friend. BTW have you checked out that site I linked to you?

 

[TG123]

For all of the posters reading this discussion between myself and Bushmaster, please feel free to jump in. Thanks and God bless.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Hey, I never forgot about this, will get to it sometime Sorry...