Why is the burden of proof placed on the disbelievers? In every other instance apart from religion, the burden of proof rests on the positive claim. Nonbelievers shouldn't have to disprove God until believers can prove Him. If I walked up to you and said "Fairies exist and made our entire world, and since you cannot prove me wrong I am speaking truth," you'd all think I was crazy. If you make a positive existence claim, positive proof is your burden, or is there a reason it shouldn't be like that?
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Burden of Proof
- Thread starter Umaro
- Start date
Hi Umaro,
The answer to that question lies in Romans 1.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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God has given us a conscience that also bears witness. Truth will ring true with our conscience, if it is not seared. He does show Himself to the humble, we aren't left alone, He gives Holy Spirit to those who diligently seek Him, and a clean conscience with Jesus.
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Rafael
Only time enough for love
Life is a gift we are given, and all burden for proof in seeking out why we exist lies with us. The Bible agrees with the truth about man's sin and death condition and does not gloss over the truth in any way. It exposes the sin and death part of us we may prefer to hide even from ourselves. With the entrance of God's word comes light and true freedom from the enslavement of sin and death. So, it is our responsibility to find and know what is true, and God says that we instinctively know certain things just by having life. Does a person really have to wonder about right and wrong when they see murder and extreme injustice? No, their conscience istinctively knows, but when it comes to preference of sin over obedience to God, we often choose to not see the truth and turn a blind eye to it. Lies like that are dangerous, though, as we may come to believe our own lies after a time, and the conscience becomes hardened to the truth. Either way, it is our responsibility and burden to seek out the truth or risk having left the truth and eternity for a lie in the temorary.
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Key
The Opener of Locks
Well my "proof" is how God affected and changed my life. So I have my evidence in that sense. As such, to prove that the changes in my life that were brought about were not the product of God in my life would require you to prove that God was not in my life to begin with.
If you do not want to believe in God, or Christianity, that is your freedom to do so, and if that is your only stance, then no proof either way is required.
I can only share what I have experienced, if that is unacceptable to you, then you only reject the evidence, not the reality of it.
God Bless
Key
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You do not have to prove your point nor should you
be preached to about your beliefs.
You do not have to go to bibles or tradition to prove
Christianity is for real. All you have to do is look at
the people who hate Christ to prove Christianity is
true.
I know alot of people dont like to use the "hate" word
but its a fact of life and to deny it is foolish and dangerous for Christian's because there is a real war
going on between heaven and hell,
I could be wrong but when I was your age I majored
in philosophy and it can damage your soul, I hope
you find good insight to fill your soul.
Ron
be preached to about your beliefs.
You do not have to go to bibles or tradition to prove
Christianity is for real. All you have to do is look at
the people who hate Christ to prove Christianity is
true.
I know alot of people dont like to use the "hate" word
but its a fact of life and to deny it is foolish and dangerous for Christian's because there is a real war
going on between heaven and hell,
I could be wrong but when I was your age I majored
in philosophy and it can damage your soul, I hope
you find good insight to fill your soul.
Ron
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indagroove
Senior Member
Sorry, but I cannot validate the burden you are trying to place on me.
Our commission is to spread the good news, not to make you believe. That will be God's job.
My you live in peace and have much joy.
Our commission is to spread the good news, not to make you believe. That will be God's job.
My you live in peace and have much joy.
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Umaro--
God has given mankind more than enough proof. He has already proven Himself by His creation alone. Its up to us to make a choice to believe God or not. The ball is in your court not Gods.
****No one was ever talked into heaven. When you ask Jesus into your heart and are sincere, THEN He will give you His Holy Spirit and have mercy on you. Its a spiritual experience that isn't up for debate. One either chooses Jesus or doesn't. I have already suggested books for you to read and strongly suggested that gives intellectual proof. YOU are the one that needs to take action. Christ did His part by dying for your sins. Again, its up to YOU Sir. We are just the messengers and God does the saving with His Holy Spirit.
God has given mankind more than enough proof. He has already proven Himself by His creation alone. Its up to us to make a choice to believe God or not. The ball is in your court not Gods.
****No one was ever talked into heaven. When you ask Jesus into your heart and are sincere, THEN He will give you His Holy Spirit and have mercy on you. Its a spiritual experience that isn't up for debate. One either chooses Jesus or doesn't. I have already suggested books for you to read and strongly suggested that gives intellectual proof. YOU are the one that needs to take action. Christ did His part by dying for your sins. Again, its up to YOU Sir. We are just the messengers and God does the saving with His Holy Spirit.
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If Noah preached a message of "Coming Judgment" to the typical late afternoon hecklers who disbelieved his ominous claims, his motive could not have been his own welfare, (as he personally had a way escape in the making,) but their welfare. If a Christian confronts you as to your disbelief, they are probably more concerned with the soundness of what you believe than they are in securing the integrity of what they already believe. Given you rule out the undesirable contentious Christian, the only other kind that I know of is the caring Christian.
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In my origional post, you clearly can see the Fairies created the world. I don't know why you think God made it when you look.
And as for the asking Jesus into my heart, see the topic "Why won't god answer me."
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P
PhilosopherD
Guest
The only problem is that I don't know of any fairies that have popped up in history and, by having popped up, caused a cultural chain of events to follow. Fairies stay in people minds, while Messiahs become historical enigmas.
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Hi Umaro,
I searched a few pages but can't find your topic Why won't God answer me. Can you give me a link?
Thanks
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"There's ample evidence to support the conclusion that God exists."
And what exactly, is this evidence? Subjective evidence and the Bible do not qualify as proof either.
And what exactly, is this evidence? Subjective evidence and the Bible do not qualify as proof either.
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TimmyPage
Regular Member
There isn't.
Aquinas attempted to prove it, the 5 proofs of God.
http://members.aol.com/plweiss1/aquinas.htm (worded rather simply, to the point from that link).
After reading Aquinas (or rather, one of his contemporaries, O'Donnell) my interpretation of God changed.. - He is simply a Divine force we as Christians/Jews call God. If you said that a band of Faeries created the universe - it would simply be your interpretation of the same unnamed Divine force.
The key word here, is belief. I believe in God. People don't say "I have proof of God". Key difference, simply in the wording itself. It's a matter of Faith. Alot of people attempt to make the fallacy of presenting a belief as absolute proof.
It's faith either way, we, as believers in God have to have faith that there is no hard evidence against God, and you as Atheists have to have faith that there is no hard evidence for God. After all, it would be unfortunate if I died, and found there was no God. It would be unfortunate if you died and found there really was one.
Aquinas attempted to prove it, the 5 proofs of God.
http://members.aol.com/plweiss1/aquinas.htm (worded rather simply, to the point from that link).
After reading Aquinas (or rather, one of his contemporaries, O'Donnell) my interpretation of God changed.. - He is simply a Divine force we as Christians/Jews call God. If you said that a band of Faeries created the universe - it would simply be your interpretation of the same unnamed Divine force.
The key word here, is belief. I believe in God. People don't say "I have proof of God". Key difference, simply in the wording itself. It's a matter of Faith. Alot of people attempt to make the fallacy of presenting a belief as absolute proof.
It's faith either way, we, as believers in God have to have faith that there is no hard evidence against God, and you as Atheists have to have faith that there is no hard evidence for God. After all, it would be unfortunate if I died, and found there was no God. It would be unfortunate if you died and found there really was one.
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EmbracingHim
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I apprecriate everyone's answers to your question, but I do not see any burden or necessity being placed on non-believers to prove 'no' existence of God.
Even here of CF, we invite questions...for Christians to be questioned...yet there is no place to question athiests.
I'm sorry but I see the reverse of your scenerio. I find that athiests request proof, rather than Christians requesting any form of proof beyond the claims suggested (i.e. there is not solidified proof in the big-bang theory...if you summit this hypothesis...then it is reasonable to expect questions).
Hugs.
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" I'm sorry but I see the reverse of your scenerio. I find that athiests request proof, rather than Christians requesting any form of proof beyond the claims suggested (i.e. there is not solidified proof in the big-bang theory...if you summit this hypothesis...then it is reasonable to expect questions)."
I find that those Christians who will argue against atheism demand that I prove God does not exists, so that is where my question stems from. People like you seem to be, who don't debate are the ones that don't ask. It's hard to ask a question to everyone when generalization can't be avoided.
I find that those Christians who will argue against atheism demand that I prove God does not exists, so that is where my question stems from. People like you seem to be, who don't debate are the ones that don't ask. It's hard to ask a question to everyone when generalization can't be avoided.
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Umaro--
Fairys don't exist -God and His angels do. You keep making false assumptions and thinking God hasn't answered you. God isn't going to answer you the way "you think He should". He has already answered you by using this website and talking to many christians.
If your serious about all this, you will take heed to our answers and investigate this for yourself. I will continue to pray for you but none of this is up for debate. I won't be discussing this anymore with you. This all isn't a game but its a eternal decision that is UP TO YOU not us or God.
Your car or house just didn't appear out of thin air but your assuming that the heavens and the earth did. Not so.
Fairys don't exist -God and His angels do. You keep making false assumptions and thinking God hasn't answered you. God isn't going to answer you the way "you think He should". He has already answered you by using this website and talking to many christians.
If your serious about all this, you will take heed to our answers and investigate this for yourself. I will continue to pray for you but none of this is up for debate. I won't be discussing this anymore with you. This all isn't a game but its a eternal decision that is UP TO YOU not us or God.
Your car or house just didn't appear out of thin air but your assuming that the heavens and the earth did. Not so.
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