Brothers and Sisters, is it TIME FOR WRATH???

KomissarSteve said:

I know. That's why I'm wondering if it's God who is telling you to read the Scriptures in a way that is totally out-of-sync with the spirit of love embodied by the Gospels.

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You do realize that in this love embodied by the Gospels that Jesus Christ spoke of hell three times to one the number of times he spoke of heaven.

Why do you suppose a God of love would talk about a place of torment and separation from Him so much?

Zaac said:

You do realize that in this love embodied by the Gospels that Jesus Christ spoke of hell three times to one the number of times he spoke of heaven.

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A lot of those instances in which He spoke of Hell were in reference to people who preached God's Wrath without preaching God's Love.

Why do you suppose a God of love would talk about a place of torment and separation from Him so much?

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To warn those who would drive His children away from Him by portraying God as vindictive and capricious.

KomissarSteve said:

A lot of those instances in which He spoke of Hell were in reference to people who preached God's Wrath without preaching God's Love.

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You need to stop.

To warn those who would drive His children away from Him by portraying God as vindictive and capricious.

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Hmm, it's been a while since I posted in this thread. I just want to add that, as a heathen, I'm more likely to be swayed by Christians like Steve than Zaac.

That is all.

Vene said:

Hmm, it's been a while since I posted in this thread. I just want to add that, as a heathen, I'm more likely to be swayed by Christians like Steve than Zaac.

That is all.

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As a Christian, I just want to add that the Bible says 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. 2 Timothy 4:3-5

Why do you think Joel Osteen is so popular?

I fully expect people to want to receive a false gospel that does not speak of sin and repentance and the penalty for sin.

I fully expect people to want to be swayed and pacified by a false gospel that does not give them a reason to deal with their sin problem.

And for the record, no Christian can sway you toward Christ. If you are drawn to Christ, it is because HE draws you.

But that's not all the Bible says is it, Zaac? 1 Peter 3:15 says this: "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

Of course you shouldn't water down the gospel - but I see very little evidence of Steve doing that. But I do see respect towards people who disagree with him. I see a willingness to listen to other viewpoints as well as presenting his own. I see him standing up for gospel truth in a way that is firm and confident, but is also polite and respectful to those around him.

I don't see him calling people names or treating other people who disagree with him with disdain.

Of course no Christian can sway you towards Christ - but they can present a bad view of Christ's kingdom. People aren't gonna want to know what a Christian have to say about God's love if all they see is that same Christian's self-righteousness, disdain of those who aren't "saved", arrogance and hatred. That's in nearly all the Epistles, Paul advises the church to treat people with gentleness and respect. Because the example Christians provide in the way they live their lives and the way they treat others can make the difference between whether someone investigates the Christian faith or just counts it off as an irrelevance. It would be tragic if someone failed to discover the truth of Christ for themselves simply because we were too fond of our own status, pride or self-righteousness.

Zaac said:

You need to stop.

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I think Vene's post...

Vene said:

Hmm, it's been a while since I posted in this thread. I just want to add that, as a heathen, I'm more likely to be swayed by Christians like Steve than Zaac.

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...suggests that it's not me who should stop.

bunced said:

But that's not all the Bible says is it, Zaac? 1 Peter 3:15 says this: "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

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Absolutely. But you've got plenty of people in this forum who think that the Good News is not Good News if it mentions hell, sin or anything that they perceive to be negative. And because their attitudes are biased the minute they hear something they don't like or disagree with, the deliverer of the truth is branded as hateful and bigoted and a preach of fire and brimstone, and that's not the message Jesus preached.

Of course no Christian can sway you towards Christ - but they can present a bad view of Christ's kingdom. People aren't gonna want to know what a Christian have to say about God's love if all they see is that same Christian's self-righteousness, disdain of those who aren't "saved", arrogance and hatred. That's in nearly all the Epistles, Paul advises the church to treat people with gentleness and respect. Because the example Christians provide in the way they live their lives and the way they treat others can make the difference between whether someone investigates the Christian faith or just counts it off as an irrelevance. It would be tragic if someone failed to discover the truth of Christ for themselves simply because we were too fond of our own status, pride or self-righteousness.

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Again, complete agreement.

KomissarSteve said:

I think Vene's post...



...suggests that it's not me who should stop.

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Vene's post suggests nothing more than what God's Word says about who the lost will surround themselves with.

Until a person understands that there is wrath to go with God's love and that that wrath is because of man's sin, there will be no repentance.

That is why we preach BOTH and why the TWO are inseparable.

If a man doesn't think he is sinning, then he will see no need for repentance or a Savior.

Zaac said:

Vene's post suggests nothing more than what God's Word says about who the loss will surround themselves with.

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Unbelievers? Goodness...wouldn't that mean Jesus was lost, then, by your criteria?

Until a person understands that there is wrath to go with God's love and that that wrath is because of man's sin, there will be no repentance.

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I don't see any Scriptural basis for this claim; I find that a much better way of reaching unbelievers is to let them know that they're currently missing out on a wonderful relationship with a loving Creator.

KomissarSteve said:

Unbelievers? Goodness...wouldn't that mean Jesus was lost, then, by your criteria?

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By God's criteria, that would again mean what he says in 2 Tim 4

I don't see any Scriptural basis for this claim; I find that a much better way of reaching unbelievers is to let them know that they're currently missing out on a wonderful relationship with a loving Creator.

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Of course you don't because you want to preach the Gospel message the way that YOu want to instead of the way God says to.

They don't get to have a wonderful relationship witha loving Creator if they are mired in sin. The sin issue has to be dealt with.

There can be no salvation without repentance.

If Jesus Christ had to die after taking on the world's sin and subsequently have His Father turn away from Him, how do you get the good fortune of not preaching of God's wrath against sin?

I just read the OP.

If I died with That vision of God in my head ... when I arrived in Heaven it would surely be a Hell. I would not want to be in Heaven with the God that is portrayed in that "sermon". He is a Devil!

Zaac said:

By God's criteria, that would again mean what he says in 2 Tim 4

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You're in no position to say what is and isn't God's criteria, in this instance. I think it's just as likely that the verse in 2 Timothy is referring to people who hold your point of view.

Of course you don't because you want to preach the Gospel message the way that YOu want to instead of the way God says to.

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Show me Scripturally that this is the way God wants to teach it, and that it's not, in fact, the way YOU want to teach it because you're angry at the world and want to put people in their place.

They don't get to have a wonderful relationship witha loving Creator if they are mired in sin. The sin issue has to be dealt with.

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They're not going to deal with the "sin issue" if you portray God as an Entity who isn't interested in having a loving relationship with each and every individual human being.

When we read Ephesisans 1:2, we see that Paul greets the saints with the Greek greeting "Grace" and the Hebrew greeting "Peace". He, of course, means far more by those words than the man in the corner café in Athens or Jerusalem ever imagined, because these two words embody the gospel - the grace in that Christ was willing to come down and lift us up to him by his sacrifice rather than make us work up to his standard, and peace, because true peace is there for those who believe in Christ. These were the first words in his letter. Grace and Peace. Not "Grace with a background of hatred". Of course people need to know the problem of sin - but not a focus on the wrath of God at the expense of the love of God and the relationship with God.

KomissarSteve said:

You're in no position to say what is and isn't God's criteria,

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Sure I am.

in this instance. I think it's just as likely that the verse in 2 Timothy is referring to people who hold your point of view.

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What is just is likely is that you're drumming up excuses and not aligning what you're saying with the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word.

Show me Scripturally that this is the way God wants to teach it, and that it's not, in fact, the way YOU want to teach it because you're angry at the world and want to put people in their place.

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Surely let's look at the Old Testament.

See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand. For I lift up My hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. If I whet My glittering sword, and Mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to Mine enemies, and will reward them that hate Me (Deut 32:39-41).

Because God is holy, He hates all sin, and because He hates all sin, His anger burns against the sinner.

11 God is a righteous judge,
a God who expresses his wrath every day. (Psalm 7:11)

And Daniel's prayer in Daniel 9:4-12

4 I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:
"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands, 5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 "Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the men of Judah and people of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 O LORD, we and our kings, our princes and our fathers are covered with shame because we have sinned against you. 9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10 we have not obeyed the LORD our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

"Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12 You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem.

Throughout the Old Testament the prophets frequently told their hearers that their wicked lives provoked the Holy One of Israel, and that they were treasuring up to themselves wrath against the day of wrath.

But lets move to the New Testament.

First of all, consider the fact that the expression "the wrath of God" is used a number of times in the New Testament. For instance, the Bible says in Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience

Furthermore, anger or wrath is ascribed to Jesus. On one occasion when Jesus had entered a synagogue on a sabbath day, some of the people watched Him in order to find some fault in Him. Jesus was angered. The Bible says : "And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts . . ." (Mark 3:5).

Yes Jesus loves us! But don't forget that Revelation 6:16 speaks of "the wrath of the Lamb."

Don't forget that the Word of God says in Revelation Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." Rev. 16:1

Many times the Book of Revelation speaks of God's wrath. And of all the Books of the Bible, it is the one that gives the greatest sense of urgency to get the truth of God's Word out to the unsaved.

If a man truly loves Jesus Christ, he does not want anyone to have to suffer God's impending wrath.

But let's look further. Are there instances of God's wrath further displayed in the New Testament?


In the Book of Acts Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:1-11).

After King Herod Agrippa I accepted the praises of men and did not glorify God, the Lord smote him and he died (Acts 12:21-23).

When Elymas, or Bar-Jesus, tried to withstand the preaching of Barnabas and Paul, "the hand of the Lord" struck him blind (Acts 13:6-11).

Countless times God's wrath is displayed. Countless times He shows Himself to be a God of love AND a God of wrath.

From Genesis to Revelation there is example after example of preaching repentance for sin. There is example after example of pointing out of sin as Ezekiel 3:18 says and a calling to repentance.

Why? Because there can be no salvation without repentance and there will be no repentance if the sinner does not know WHY he needs a savior.

The Word of God says in Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

There is a price to be paid for sin. God's wrath is exacted upon those who reject His Son, and their end will be the lake of fire.

They're not going to deal with the "sin issue" if you portray God as an Entity who isn't interested in having a loving relationship with each and every individual human being.

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Have you not read(probably not) the number of times in this thread I have said that you don't preach God's love without preaching God's wrath because the two are inseparable?

bunced said:

When we read Ephesisans 1:2, we see that Paul greets the saints with the Greek greeting "Grace" and the Hebrew greeting "Peace". He, of course, means far more by those words than the man in the corner café in Athens or Jerusalem ever imagined, because these two words embody the gospel - the grace in that Christ was willing to come down and lift us up to him by his sacrifice rather than make us work up to his standard, and peace, because true peace is there for those who believe in Christ. These were the first words in his letter. Grace and Peace. Not "Grace with a background of hatred". Of course people need to know the problem of sin - but not a focus on the wrath of God at the expense of the love of God and the relationship with God.

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But no one is saying focus on the wrath of God at the expense of the love of God. But neither should we focus on the love at the expense of the wrath.

The two are inseparable. You cannot give an understanding of God's love without giving an understanding of His wrath against sin.

And herein lies the problem today. Because we(Christians) feel that people are put off by hearing about sin and what it leads to, we end up preaching a false Gospel that only speaks of the feel good lovey dovey stuff that we think will be appealing.

What we end up with is churches filled with millions and millions of people whose lives have not been changed. Their Saturday nights look nothing like their Sunday mornings. Their weekdays look nothing like their Sunday mornings.

Why? Because they have not been transformed because they have not heard God's Word that makes men free.

There has been no repentance because we haven't told them that there needs to be repentance.

We tell them that God loves them and all they have to do is say a prayer. Meanwhile, there has been no repentance because no one has told them WHY there needs to be repentance.

You have never read through the whole bible have you?

God is love. He also is holy!!!

People forget that little fact. He eternally will punish the wicked.

But He will eternally bless the righteous!!!

So go the righteous way!!! Become a Christian and be blessed forever.

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It's also a little known fact that what seems obvious to the majority of people is usually dead wrong.

ShieldOFaith said:

You have never read through the whole bible have you?

God is love. He also is holy!!!

People forget that little fact. He eternally will punish the wicked.

But He will eternally bless the righteous!!!

So go the righteous way!!! Become a Christian and be blessed forever.

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Your god sounds a loving god alright.
The usual eternal punishment for the 'wicked' - ie anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible.
Hell is going to be awfully crowded - Satan's probably going to have to consider building an extension and maybe upgrade to a sea of brimstone and whatever. I don't think the lake's going to be big enough for us all.

Your god sounds a loving god alright.
The usual eternal punishment for the 'wicked' - ie anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible.
Hell is going to be awfully crowded - Satan's probably going to have to consider building an extension and maybe upgrade to a sea of brimstone and whatever. I don't think the lake's going to be big enough for us all.

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I somewhat agree(with the fact that hell is gonna be awfully crowded)..One Early Church Father(I think Augustine) said that if hell was opened just a little bit that the smell itself would be enough to kill all humans on earth..


There have been many visions of people in hell as black embers piled up next to each other in a great sea.

"She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would
have died of terror and fear." - Memoirs, Sister Lucy (Lucy Dos Santos)



Some of the punishments in hell according to the vision include:
Blasphemers are hung by the tongue.
Women who use makeup, or dress in a sexually suggestive manner, are hung by the hair over a bubbling mire (and men that had sex with them are hung by the feet next to them).
Murderers are set in a pit of poisoned snakes
Men who take the passive role in anal sex, and sexually active lesbians, are hurled off a great cliff, and then made to climb it again, ceaselessly.
Women who have abortions are set in a lake formed from the blood and gore from all the other punishments, up to their necks.

http://www.hellandjustice.com/near_death_experiences.htm