Brother Judas Iscariot

[jeremiah1five]

Don't you call the saved male brethren in the Body of Christ brother? I know I do. I am also careful to not put darkness for light, nor light for darkness (Isa. 5:20 ). I mean, John in his epistle tells us to test the spirits so that we may discern (judge) true believer from false believer (regardless of their gift ministry - 1 Jn. 4:1). However, does anyone really know HOW to test the spirit of an individual to tell if they are TRULY born-again? Or are you the type that calls EVERYONE "brother" or "sister" just because the say they are Christian?

One thing that amazes me is how many, and I mean MANY, Christians believe in their heart of hearts that God can save their unsaved family member or best friend, but when it comes to Judas Isacriot the man is delegated to hell at just the mention of his name. His election by Jesus to "be with Him" which implies intimate relation is of no consequence. Neither the fact that Jesus called and made him an apostle. If Jesus and Scripture declare Judas an apostle who are we to say he wasn't? Aren't the gifts and call of God without repentance? Yes, you say, except for Judas?

Judas Isacriot. A man whose life touches many major doctrines of the Bible. I don't know about you, but I believe that in careful study of this life one cannot but come to the conclusion that Judas is with Jesus. He is among the great cloud of witnesses that come with the Lord upon His return. Judas Isacariot: a man in covenant with God.

Unless, of course, you are not honest with the Scripture and do not have your doctrinal understanding in the right place.

Judas Iscariot.

My brother.

 

[Skala]

Son of perdition. On purpose. To fulfill scripture.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Son of perdition. On purpose. To fulfill scripture.

Son of ruin or destruction.

Three senses in which the word is defined:

physical ruin
Spiritual ruin
eternal ruin.

Which sense do you think is aptly applied? We cannot be certain as to Judas' eternal ruin.
Spiritual ruin cannot be applied since the Holy Spirit was not sent until Pentecost.
Physical ruin. Judas committed suicide.

Everything is on purpose. God started something and He will end it.

To fulfill His plan, His Word spoken and written.

 

[AndOne]

Matthew 26:20-25
When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve.And as they were eating, he said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me." And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, "Is it I, Lord?" He answered, "He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." Judas, who would betray him, answered, "Is it I, Rabbi?" He said to him, "You have said so."

I may not be the sharpest tack in the bunch - but the words of Jesus regarding Judas in this particular text don't seem to offer poor Judas much hope...

I don't know about ya'll - but I don't think I'd want to be on the receiving end of these words - particularly in light of the person who is saying them.

I can see the reasoning that has gone into the OP that makes the claim that Judas ultimately was saved - but personally I think its a pretty big stretch.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Matthew 26:20-25
When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve.And as they were eating, he said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me." And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, "Is it I, Lord?" He answered, "He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." Judas, who would betray him, answered, "Is it I, Rabbi?" He said to him, "You have said so."

I may not be the sharpest tack in the bunch - but the words of Jesus regarding Judas in this particular text don't seem to offer poor Judas much hope...

I don't know about ya'll - but I don't think I'd want to be on the receiving end of these words - particularly in light of the person who is saying them.

I can see the reasoning that has gone into the OP that makes the claim that Judas ultimately was saved - but personally I think its a pretty big stretch.

I understand your concern but you fail to recognize what Jesus was doing when He said that:

Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Jesus said this to the twelve including Judas.
In Luke 6:12-13 Jesus elects twelve men "to be with Him" (Mk 3:14), which implies intimate relationship.
At the Passover meal He tells all twelve the offering is given to all twelve. Election does not save you, but it designate you to salvation.
If death, hell, and damnation did not passover all twelve that night them something is wrong.
They were in the ark. The ark is Jesus. And His very own blood is on the mantle.

You cannot distinguish and separate Judas from the declaration that this offering of Jesus Himself is given for "YOU."

C'mon now, look at the Scripture.

Do you agree?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Heres a bunch of verses on Judas if you can use them


Luke 6:16 Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Mat 26:15 What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.


Duet 27:25Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person.

John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

He says none are lost but one here (lost is the opposite of found or saved)

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

And likewise Paul mentions what partaking unworthily means

1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Theres alot more in the scriptures about Judas which is spoken of in various places heres an older study I did on him following the various leadings given throughout scripture (all of them are not worked into this one but enough is.

Besides being called a traitor

Judas is called "a thief" (John 12:6)

This is pretty interesting, you can see it this way as well...

Duet 24:7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

Shown in Judas

Mat 26:15 What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

Following the psalms concerning Judas...

Psalm 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned:

Mat 27:3a Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he **saw** that he **was condemned** repented himself, (divided verse)

Psalm 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath

Mat 27:3b and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders

Mat 23:25 ...for within they are full of extortion and excess.

After he brings the silver again he said...

Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.

Duet 27:5 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.


Psalm 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him

Mat 5:27 And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Psalm 109:8a.....Let his days be few.

Mat 27:5... Judas went and hanged himself.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate,

Likewise to them...

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Psalm 109:8b...and let another take his office.

Acts 1:26 ...and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Psalm 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

And in proverbs...

Prov 17:14 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

Again...Jesus said to "them" this

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Which pertains to this (even that of bribery here) not sure here

Job 15:24 For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery.

Heres what Im looking at as well

Judas Iscariot = "men of Kerioth"

Amos 2:2 But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die

Confirmed in Psalms regarding the iniquity of his fathers

Psalm 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. 15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

So above speaks of his FATHERS (those before him) below speaks of his children (them who come after him) and the desolate places

Psalm 109:9-10 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.

This was said of Cain as well (who also slew innocent blood)

Gen 4:14 I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth ,

Same here in regards to Isreal...The words caused to "wander" mean the same

Numbers 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.

Just as Judas sold the Lord (the truth) the children Israel (as well) set the value upon him (making mechandise of him)

Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value

Here it speaks of his posterity

Psalm 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

Posterity

1) after part, end
a) end, issue, event
b) latter time (prophetic for future time)
c) posterity
d) last, hindermost



In regards to letting their name be blotted out it says this here...

Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


The disciples didnt know who it was that would betray him... Asking WHO Lord...? And just as Judas (singular) WENT OUT and it was NIGHT (wherein the city there is no night) it speaks elsewhere (using the same wording) saying THEY (in the plural) WENT OUT from us here...


1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made ***manifest*** that they were not all of us.

Even as as the children of God and the children of the devil are "manifest"

Peter also speaks of others making merchandise of you as Judas along with the children of Israel made merchandise of the Lord (who is "the truth"). It says "buy the truth and sell it not" (sorta a picture of what Judas was doing as well).

They use (as Judas used) "feigned" (insincere) words

2Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Sorta like how Judas said, "why this waste it could have been sold and given to the poor (its an example of "feigned words" meaning "insincere) even as this is pointed out here...

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Likewise Peter writes...

1Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer

A contrast between these two

Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.

In comparison

Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Whereas "ye are of your father the devil"

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

If you notice His "bowels" In Psalm 109:18 are mentioned (in relation to cursing) and They are obviously mentioned in Acts 1:18

If we look here... (which pertains to Judas here)

Duet 27:25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

And here (pertaining to Judas as well)

Psalm 109:18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.

Now here....

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

"Chosing the way of cursing" over blessing. He "clothed himself" this way in respect to this aparently. Indicative of "chosing a path" ..."cursed is he that "taketh a reward" to slay an innocent person makes sense. And in that respect let it come into his bowels as water like oil into his bones...which appears to speak of his bowels (in particular ) gushing out (in Acts). Still pounding it out because I know no prophecy of scripture is its own interpretation but you can obviously see both are in the context of Judas.

Sorry about the colors, but if you want to read it in black and white (sometimes a little easier on folks with good eyes) simply copy paste it into a document or email and select all and choose black, it will transform the page (if the colors bug you) I have bad eyes so it helps me.

Theres more but the scriptures above show pretty much, maybe they can help.

 

[AndOne]

I understand your concern but you fail to recognize what Jesus was doing when He said that:

Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Jesus said this to the twelve including Judas.
In Luke 6:12-13 Jesus elects twelve men "to be with Him" (Mk 3:14), which implies intimate relationship.
At the Passover meal He tells all twelve the offering is given to all twelve. Election does not save you, but it designate you to salvation.
If death, hell, and damnation did not passover all twelve that night them something is wrong.
They were in the ark. The ark is Jesus. And His very own blood is on the mantle.

You cannot distinguish and separate Judas from the declaration that this offering of Jesus Himself is given for "YOU."

C'mon now, look at the Scripture.

Do you agree?

Sorry no - I think you're reaching on this one. I might possibly be able to agree with you if Judas wasn't singled out by Jesus in the text. Since he was, it is clear to me that the promises you are speaking of didn't apply to him.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sorry no - I think you're reaching on this one. I might possibly be able to agree with you if Judas wasn't singled out by Jesus in the text. Since he was, it is clear to me that the promises you are speaking of didn't apply to him.

Singled out, yes. But the subject and context has changed.
You read these passages as though the supper began and concluded in the time it takes to read the passage.

What else do you agree or disagree with?

How will you take this:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is a promise by Jesus to His twelve disciples, Judas included.

Was Jesus lying?

Twelve thrones. Twelve disciples.

Maybe eleven thrones in "heaven" and one in hell?

C'mon now, is there anyone here who will be honest with Scripture?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Heres the cup being spoken of and his betrayal by Paul, you can see "let a man examine himself (in the "is it I"? part) and one eating unworthily if you go back and forth with it.

1Cr 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1Cr 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful,and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.


1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Acts 1:7 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.


John 6:20 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

In respects to the twelve throne its the ye "which have followed me (not ye which have betrayed me here...

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And likewise next verse

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Likewise he speaks of the same in Luke...

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

In respects to the twelve thrones, Judas who by transgression fell also continued not with him but betrayed him, if it was better for him to not have been born why think he is to be seated in glory judging on the same twelve thrones as the rest?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Here its talking about being washed and the kingdom

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (John 12:6 and we know Judas was a thief)

And it goes onto say...

1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

As Jesus said...

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

However (he continues about his comment "not all")

John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.


Likewise again...

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: butwoe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.



Its good to examine these things around what is written around him (even in the context of their settings) and the wording used by the apostles (who expounded on the gospels) and the fulfilment of the scriptures, even as it speaks of him in the psalms as all confirm.

 

[AndOne]

I am being honest with scripture - just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they aren't being honest with scripture.

What you believe regarding Judas is NOT an essential to salvation - so its okay for us to disagree on this one.

Regardless, this Fireinfolding poster has pretty much obliterated your premise with all the scriptures she's posted and she hasn't even stated her position on the issue.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Judas is definitely one of the great enigmas of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Sort of like the Matrix:

Oracle: Have a seat, and don't worry about that vase.
Neo: What vase? *turns around and knocks vase over*
Oracle: *smiles* that one
Neo: You knew...
Oracle: Mhm. But what's really going to bake your noodle later: would you have knocked it over if I hadn't said anything?
Neo: *head explodes*

That's what Judas reminds me of. Pure enigma.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Judas is definitely one of the great enigmas of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Sort of like the Matrix:

Oracle: Have a seat, and don't worry about that vase.
Neo: What vase? *turns around and knocks vase over*
Oracle: *smiles* that one
Neo: You knew...
Oracle: Mhm. But what's really going to bake your noodle later: would you have knocked it over if I hadn't said anything?
Neo: *head explodes*

That's what Judas reminds me of. Pure enigma.

Judas cannot be an enigma if the Sripture reveals much about him.

 

[supersoldier71]

SuperSoldier71 gets his popcorn....(subscribes)

 

[AndOne]

unsubscribing here....

 

[SwordoftheLord]

The Scriptures are perfectly clear... Judas is burning in Hell right as I type this, and will be forever... For you to say he is saved and with the Lord, Makes you a LIAR.... there I went ahead and said it..

You are giving a position that cannot be backed up with proper exgesis of the scriptures, twist it all you want, but when it comes down to it, you are teaching a false teaching....

God Bless

 

[Terene]

To the OP: My understanding of this is that Judas was once among the saved apostles, he himself was one of the saved. But through his wrong choices and his greed, he fell and sold himself to satan instead. This is the apostasy that the Word has been warning about all along. If anyone of us persistently yield to sin and make ourselves slaves of sin, we forsake Christ and lose our salvation. Judas Iscariot is an example - he was once saved, but he is no longer saved because he forsook Christ for thirty pieces of silver.

Saying Judas is saved is not consistent with the Word, because he is a son of perdition, not a son of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

To the OP: My understanding of this is that Judas was once among the saved apostles, he himself was one of the saved. But through his wrong choices and his greed, he fell and sold himself to satan instead. This is the apostasy that the Word has been warning about all along. If anyone of us persistently yield to sin and make ourselves slaves of sin, we forsake Christ and lose our salvation. Judas Iscariot is an example - he was once saved, but he is no longer saved because he forsook Christ for thirty pieces of silver.

Saying Judas is saved is not consistent with the Word, because he is a son of perdition, not a son of God.

Hello and Good Morning.
My best to you on your exams. The first rule of learning is repetition.
But I hope you don't have to take the exams again

Terene, I am a Biblical Christian. I had been born-again many, many, years ago. I was born-again by the Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23).

When I was called by the Lord I didn't know anything about the things of God. But I went consistently to Church and God had not only given me desire to do that, but also put inside of me a desire for Him and His Word. He does this with ALL His people. As I look back to my early years I learned that I grew up on Arminian-brand theology concerning salvation. I was taught that each of us are called to be apostles having inserted ourselves into the Great Commission that was given to the eleven disciples specifically by Jesus Christ (Matt. 28 : 19-20 ). I was also taught that men can "accept Jesus into their heart" or reject Him by exercising their will independently to refuse to be saved. And a great many other things that are revealed in Scripture and commanded of God to know.

It's been in the last decade that my spiritual growth and knowledge grew exponentially that as I learned how to study God's Word on my own that teaching from its pages would rise up and take hold of me as my understanding became more attuned and focused. I began to see the Biblical doctrines contained in the Word began to mature, then take shape over and over and over again. I understood the doctrine of sin. I understood the doctrine of angels, and the doctrine of man, and of the Person of Christ; I understood the doctrine of prayer, of mercy, and repentance, and conversion, of salvation...I began to learn the Word of God. And I also say this...that in my studies I found out that what things I had been taught in church were not the things I was being revealed through the Holy Spirit from God's Word. I found I needed to change MY thinking and the doctrines in my mind that were not the doctrines that I would read in the pages of Scripture.

As my Biblical understanding became more aligned with Scripture, and my deeper studies going into both Hebrew and Greek languages became better understood, I saw that the life of Judas Iscariot was a life that touched many major doctrines of the Bible. One passage led to another as I applied the iron-clad doctrines to his life and began to see a different conclusion than the ones I was taught in church. Looking honestly at the Scripture completely revolutionize my thinking on the question of Judas Iscariot. The Scripture was revealing to me that Judas Iscariot was called, chosen, elected, and saved!

Now, if you back up to comments that went before your arrival you will see the answers to your statements. If you are honest with the Scripture, are possessed of the Holy Spirit, and have a good Bible translation, the time to study, a desire for truth, then I can see no stumbling-blocks before you that will hinder or prevent your ability to answer for yourself the question about the salvation of the disciple who is called apostle by Lord named Judas Iscariot.

And if you need assistance I am here to serve.

 

[jeremiah1five]

To the OP: My understanding of this is that Judas was once among the saved apostles, he himself was one of the saved. But through his wrong choices and his greed, he fell and sold himself to satan instead. This is the apostasy that the Word has been warning about all along. If anyone of us persistently yield to sin and make ourselves slaves of sin, we forsake Christ and lose our salvation. Judas Iscariot is an example - he was once saved, but he is no longer saved because he forsook Christ for thirty pieces of silver.

Saying Judas is saved is not consistent with the Word, because he is a son of perdition, not a son of God.

I believe in the perseverance of the saint:

Philippians 1:6..."Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

I am not saved because I am holding on to the Lord's hand. I am saved because He is holding on to mine.

 

[supersoldier71]

Perserverance of the saints only applies to those who ARE saints. Judas was..well, Judas. Sorry, brother, you're not tracking on this one.