Born Again?

[DancingWall]

Ive heard peoples (and denominations) explaination of being “born again”. Jesus said to enter the kingdom you must be born again. Flesh IS flesh and spirit IS spirit. Before entering the kingdom, we will be changed from flesh to spirit. Born Again. From all the scriptures i have found, the actual event of being born again does not happen until the return of Christ.


JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[6] That which is BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH; and that which is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT.[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


1PETER1
[4] To AN INHERITANCE INCORRUPTIBLE, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.
[9] Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, even the salvation of your souls.[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;
[23] BEING BORN AGAIN, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
[24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away.


Seems that you will not be “born again” till Jesus returns at which time we will all be changed (born again). An inheritance INCORRUPTIBLE. Of course the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Cor.15) and be raised in INCORRUPTION


1COR.15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. THERE IS A NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY.

A natural body AND a spiritual body


JOHN3
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; NEITHER DOTH CORRUPTION INHERIT INCORRUPTION.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The above scripture points out when we will be "born again".

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


Nicodemus asks, how can a man be born when he is old? Job asks, If a man die, shall he live again? After the heavens be no more, after the wrath of God spoken of in revelations has taken place, then the change will come. We will be “born again” as the last trumpet of God is blown.

OR SO IT SEEMS!

 

[NJA]

1Peter 1:3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTON US AGAIN unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Peter was writing to people that were *already* born again.
You are "born again" when you receive the Holy Spirit who was not given until Jesus was glorified. This began at Pentecost when:-
"they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2v4)
This excplains what Jesu meant in John 3v8:-
"The wind bloweth (greek: the Spirit breathes) where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit."
Jesus further explained:-
"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (v12)
earthly things can be experienced with natural senses, and so, going back to Acts, Peter explained:-
"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now SEE and HEAR" (referring to the speaking in tongues) . .. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (vv33, 39)

That means you and me. Tongues is an unlearned prayer language that God leads His people in (cos only He knows His perfect will for you). Have you received that ?

If not, is there anything u want more right now ?

 

[Abba]

Seems that you will not be “born again” till Jesus returns at which time we will all be changed (born again). An inheritance INCORRUPTIBLE. Of course the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Cor.15) and be raised in INCORRUPTION

The above scripture points out when we will be "born again".

DancingWall, your "discoveries" are nothing new. Technically, we are still in our sins, and arent "saved" yet. But, we have the hope and assurance of salvation.

It seems you are making the common mistake of salvation and being born again. Salvation occurs at the final victory over sin in us and in the world, being born again makes us children of god and gives us special grace accordingly. It also allows for the hope of salvation.

A natural body AND a spiritual body

Again, this is nothing I havent heard before. I dont remeber where, but somewhere St. Augustine wrote about the difference between a "natural body" and a "spiritual body." At first glance a "spiritual body" seems to be an oxymoron, since a purely spiritual thing has no body, but what is meant is a body according to [will of] the spirit, in which the body will completely be controlled by the spirit, and in which the body will not be tempted to sin against the spirit's will. Also, a spiritual body is incorruptible.

 

[Abba]

Tongues is an unlearned prayer language that God leads His people in (cos only He knows His perfect will for you). Have you received that ?

Tongues is an awesome gift, but we must be cautious, and above all do not be too "open". Demons can and do posses the bodies of men, so we must discern whether or not the spirits which cause us to enter into us is of the holy spirit. I have had an experience with "tongues", and I have never felt a stronger prescence of evil in my life. It was horrible.

Now, again we must not get too fanatical with "tongues" and things of that nature, and we must not ask for them. The Holy Spirit gives the gift to those to whom it will give. And also, we must understand the PURPOSE of tongues. It is to build up the faith of unbelievers. But the best gifts of all, and those which help us in the fight against evil, are virtues. I know it may sound dull, but the gifts of charity, humility, faith, tmeperance, fortidude, and above all, love of God and love of fellow man are, in the long run, the most glorious gifts. A person who speaks in tongues but lacks these is, in the words of Paul "a clanging symbol". Tongues are a gift but not a sure mark of salvation

 

[DancingWall]

OK NJA

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

But the scripture says begotten unto a lively hope. Right? Theres no reason to hope for something you already have. Is there? Revealed in the last time if you have the power of faith. I really dont wish to argue over this as it is out of our hands. But it seems according to scripture, the "born again" event will not occur till Christ returns.

 

[DancingWall]

Hi Abba
you said
DancingWall, your "discoveries" are nothing new

So can you give me scriptures that prove we are born again BEFORE corruption puts on incorruption? Thanks.

PS-Whose St. Augustine?

 

[StevenL]

John 1
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Titus 3
4But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 1
3Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 2
2as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby

1 John 3
2Beloved, we are [even here and] now God's children; it is not yet disclosed (made clear) what we shall be [hereafter], but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall [ as God's children] resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He [really] is.

1 John 3
9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [1] habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him

And no, we (born ones) are not technically still in our sins. We have been washed from our sins in His own blood. Our sins have been removed from us as far as the east is from the west. They have been thrown into the bottom of the sea.

 

[Abba]

And no, we (born ones) are not technically still in our sins. We have been washed from our sins in His own blood. Our sins have been removed from us as far as the east is from the west. They have been thrown into the bottom of the sea.

Our sins up to te point of baptism have been cleaned away, including original sin, but we still have that sinful inclination. We still sin, although we hope to be saved. Being saved means to be saved from this world and its sins.

 

[StevenL]

1 John 3
9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [1] habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

 

[DancingWall]

Hi StevenL
Thanks for those scriptures. Some of them seem to say the born again process begins while we are yet on earth in the flesh but walking in the spirit. Walking in righteousness. Thanks. I guess im beginning to understand.

 

[DancingWall]

2 PETER1 [4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.[5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;[6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;[7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.[8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.[9] BUT HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND, AND CANNOT SEE AFAR OFF, AND HATH FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS.



ROMANS 3 [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;



JOHN 5 [11] He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk. [12] Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?[13] And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.[14] Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, BEHOLD, THOU ART MADE WHOLE: SIN NO MORE, LEST A WORSE THING COME UNTO THEE.

 

[DancingWall]

Abba
Original sin? Whats that.

 

[StevenL]

Hi StevenL
Thanks for those scriptures. Some of them seem to say the born again process begins while we are yet on earth in the flesh but walking in the spirit. Walking in righteousness. Thanks. I guess im beginning to understand.

You're welcome. I ask the Lord to be with you and lead you and me both into all the Truth. God bless DW.

 

[NJA]

Dancing,

Christians "hope" for the redemption of the body
Ph'p:3:21: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1Co:15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Until then, christians "see through a glass darkly", they have the Holy Spirit as "the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" . . .a taste of things to come.

Rom8:23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which *have* the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Jesus was anointed for His ministry on earth in the fleshy body BEFORE He put off the earthly garment and was glorified and began the ministry of High Priest.

 

[Rebirth In Flames]

"Born-again Christian" drives me nuts. It's like saying, "I'm saved, AND I believe in Jesus." They're one in the same, here, man! We're "born-again" when we become a Christian; and vise-versa: We become a Christian when we're born again.

People have asked me, "Are you a Christian?" I say yes, they say "but have you been born-again?" lol.. drive me up the wall, "Yes, I was born-again when I became a Christian." It's usually post-modern kids who embrace the newer theology that tells it's followers that they are two very different experiences. Of course systematic-theology tells us that it is the same event.

 

[NJA]

Rebirth - your words are correct, but what is the experience ?
i.e. when were the disciples "born again" ?
Jesus said it's being "born of the Spirit" who "was not given" until Jesus was glorified (John 3v5-8, 7v39, 16v7, Acts 2v33)

 

[Stinker]

Rebirth - your words are correct, but what is the experience ?
i.e. when were the disciples "born again" ?
Jesus said it's being "born of the Spirit" who "was not given" until Jesus was glorified (John 3v5-8, 7v39, 16v7, Acts 2v33)

We are 'born of the Spirit' when we follow what the Spirit brought- the word. The word says to be baptized in water (born of water) and by following the word...."Seeing that ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit.... "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." (1Pet.1:22-23)

 

[BarbB]

"Born-again Christian" drives me nuts. It's like saying, "I'm saved, AND I believe in Jesus." They're one in the same, here, man! We're "born-again" when we become a Christian; and vise-versa: We become a Christian when we're born again.

People have asked me, "Are you a Christian?" I say yes, they say "but have you been born-again?" lol.. drive me up the wall, "Yes, I was born-again when I became a Christian." It's usually post-modern kids who embrace the newer theology that tells it's followers that they are two very different experiences. Of course systematic-theology tells us that it is the same event.

But - I was a Christian since birth until I was born-again beginning 3-1/2 years ago. Please don't be irritated with those who ask. I don't ask, but I am usually able to discern if a person has been born-again!

 

[DancingWall]

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed

Hmm...Got me thinking again. Arent there many verses concerning seed in the new testament? Could they have something to add to this born again thing. Im still not completely sure the "born again" event takes place while we are in the flesh. To many conflicting scriptures. But could the seed be planted while in the flesh?

 

[Justme]

hI dANCINGWALL,

My money is on your first post.

Peter talks of a rebirth for mankind made possible by the cross, long story made short.

Some religious denominations use the phrase 'born again' in relation to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or to describe the event of when you come to 'believe,'

John 3 talks about what you said. It can only occur at the second coming. The proof of that is that even if someone tells you they are born again, they still cannot enter the Kingdom of God until the second coming.They can feel the kingdom of God within themselves , but they can not ENTER the kingdom of God.

Justme