When did the teaching of one need to be born again before believe start or first was taught?
Did Calvin teach this?
Did Calvin teach this?
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Born again before believe
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DeaconDean
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Correct me if I am wrong Woody, but isn't this seen most of all in the doctrine of regeneration? Regeneration by the Holy Spirit preceeds faith and believing, according to John 16:8?
I know this was a foundational truth believed by the oldest Baptist association in America.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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GodsElect
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Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
It is God who gives the new heart (regeneration) and fills you with the Holy Spirit to cause you to truly believe in Him and keep His commandments. He makes you alive FIRST while you were dead in trespasses and sin. And now you willingly want to obey Him and only do what is pleasing to Him. How does that famous song go?....Ya know the one that was written by a great Calvinst ship captain.....Yes! that Amazing Grace!!!
...Amazing Grace how sweet the sound...
...That saved a wretch like me...
...I once was lost, but now am found...
...Was blind, but now I see.....
Does your church or anyone you know sing this song???
Just remember when you hear it, know that you or anyone singing it they are singing Calvinstic Doctrine!
The New Birth
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.
1 John 5:1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
So we have received faith in Christ from the Spirit in regeneration, which was FIRST given from God!
It is God who gives the new heart (regeneration) and fills you with the Holy Spirit to cause you to truly believe in Him and keep His commandments. He makes you alive FIRST while you were dead in trespasses and sin. And now you willingly want to obey Him and only do what is pleasing to Him. How does that famous song go?....Ya know the one that was written by a great Calvinst ship captain.....Yes! that Amazing Grace!!!
...Amazing Grace how sweet the sound...
...That saved a wretch like me...
...I once was lost, but now am found...
...Was blind, but now I see.....
Does your church or anyone you know sing this song???
Just remember when you hear it, know that you or anyone singing it they are singing Calvinstic Doctrine!
The New Birth
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.
1 John 5:1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
So we have received faith in Christ from the Spirit in regeneration, which was FIRST given from God!
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CCWoody
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Logically, yes, Regeneration/ the new birth/ born again, preceeds and causes faith/ trust & believing.
When Adam was created, the Holy Spirit breathed into him the breath of life and he did what was natural; opened his eyes and believed in his Creator. When the Holy Spirit hovers over a spiritually dead soul and gives him a new birth, we do what is natural; we open our spiritually dead eyes and believe in our Redeemer.
I was blind; now I see.
I'm not sure just how you can seperate in time the new birth and believing, just as Adam's new life and the action of the Holy Spirit to give it were inseperable events. Still one logically preceeded the other and caused it.
1 John 5:1 is absurdly clear in the Greek: Whosoever believes (now) has already been born of God (in an action already considered completed and not needing to be redone - if I remember my tenses from memory). This scripture is true for the first moment of belief and for all moments of belief. At my first moment of belief, I was already born of God. In the sense that the board must open to permit the bullet to pass through, no one will deny that it is the irresistible power of the bullet which causes the hole through which it passes. From my perspective as the board, I allowed the bullet (Holy Spirit) to pass through. From the perspective of the bullet, the power is irresistible.
Edit: Woody marks post #5300.
Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....
Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
Woody.
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DeaconDean
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Alphadux
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I'm a Calvinist, but I'm having a bit of a hard time fully understanding the regeneration preceeding faith. It seems that this doctrine teaches that believing doesn't save us, but rather we believe because we are saved. Is that correct? If so, what do we make of passages that say that faith saves us? Am I misunderstanding something?
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McWilliams
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He gifts us with the ability to believe; faith!
We certainly didnt believe on our own abilities but only when our heart was changed, regenerated, then we had the ability to believe as that great Light was shined into the darkness of our heart, showing us the black sin that was harbored there and we saw our great need of a Savior! What great grace it took to turn us around from our own self to become slaves to righteousness!
Soli deo gloria!
We certainly didnt believe on our own abilities but only when our heart was changed, regenerated, then we had the ability to believe as that great Light was shined into the darkness of our heart, showing us the black sin that was harbored there and we saw our great need of a Savior! What great grace it took to turn us around from our own self to become slaves to righteousness!
Soli deo gloria!
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John 5:1 says if you keep believing then you are born again.
I haven't seen one verse that proove this doctorine.
How do you explain Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Recieving the H.S is after believe.
My question was did anyone after the disciples believed this? or was it lost doctorine till Calvin?
I haven't seen one verse that proove this doctorine.
How do you explain Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Recieving the H.S is after believe.
My question was did anyone after the disciples believed this? or was it lost doctorine till Calvin?
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Regeneration is spiritual life, but it alone is no more salvation than the ability to understand is an education. With regeneration we can see the Kingdom of God; with salvation we're brought into the Kingdom of God. One is necessary to the other; but they aren't identical.
Faith is the sole instrument by which we are saved; but again, it's not God looking, "Oh, he's got such a fine faith. I'll let him into My Kingdom."
Well, no, that isn't what 1 John 5:1 says. It says you are already born again (perfect tense), and that if you are believing (present tense) in Jesus. Greek's pretty straightforward. You don't become born by believing, according to this verse. You have been born if you are believing, according to this verse.
1 John 5:1 is quite a statement. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."
Again, we're talking about precedence, here: that faith can only be built on a spiritual foundation, it can't be built on a carnal one. So regeneration must precede faith. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn 3:3
Yes, spiritual regeneration is not receiving the Holy Spirit of God. Spiritual birth is not the same as the indwelling of the Spirit of God. One involves something done to us. The other involves a relationship made between us and God.
Augustine held to this view. So did Thomas Aquinas. Now, this question is specifically touching on the logical precedence of spiritual regeneration, and not extending into other questions of human cooperation over what follows, where as we've said we disagree with the Roman Catholic view. But on that specific point there's more agreement than may first appear.
Even Chrysostom points out something remarkably close to this (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Ch. 2: 3ff):
One dead, by nature a child of wrath. And what good hast thou done? None. Truly now it is high time to exclaim, “Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God!” (Rom 11:33) v. 8 “For by grace,” saith he “have ye been saved."
In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise thee too high, observe how he brings thee down: “by grace ye have been saved,” saith he,
“Through faith;”
Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,
“And that not of ourselves.”
Neither is faith, he means, “of ourselves.” Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? for “how,” saith he, “shall they believe, unless they hear?” (Rom. 10:14.) So that the work of faith itself is not our own.
“It is the gift,” said he, “of God,” it is “not of works.”
Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, saith he, hath required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saveth, but it is because God so willeth, that faith saveth. Since, how, tell me, doth faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.
Ver. 9. “That no man should glory.”
That he may excite in us proper feeling touching this gift of grace.
In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise thee too high, observe how he brings thee down: “by grace ye have been saved,” saith he,
“Through faith;”
Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,
“And that not of ourselves.”
Neither is faith, he means, “of ourselves.” Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? for “how,” saith he, “shall they believe, unless they hear?” (Rom. 10:14.) So that the work of faith itself is not our own.
“It is the gift,” said he, “of God,” it is “not of works.”
Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, saith he, hath required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saveth, but it is because God so willeth, that faith saveth. Since, how, tell me, doth faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.
Ver. 9. “That no man should glory.”
That he may excite in us proper feeling touching this gift of grace.
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DeaconDean
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Lets see if I can put this into words that you can understand.
First off, a person sitting in a church listening to a preacher preach, cannot hear what is being preached. There is a difference between listening to what is said and hearing what is said. A person, unless under the influence of the Holy Spirit, can not hear what the preacher says because:
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts,..To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it." -Jer. 6:9-10
Now I know someone is going to say: Doesn't the Bible say faith cometh fromhearing and hearing from the word of God? Yes it does, but if that is the case, two problem arise. One, faith is a gift of God, and just hearing does not give faith. Two, the Bible plainly tells that not only is faith a gift of God, but it is the Holy Spirit whom gives the gift of faith. So just stick with me for a little longer.
How many times would one have to sit in church just listening to the word being preached before hearing would come? See what I'm getting at?
First off, the Bible tells us that since Jesus has ascended into heaven, the Holy Spirit is the working force on earth. Two things must be done in order for the sinner to come to repentance. The Holy Spirit must circumcize the ears so that the word can be heard. And then, the Holy Spirit must be working inside the unbeliever prior to regeneration.
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -Jn. 16:7-11
The Holy Spirit has opened the ears so that the Gospel can be heard. Now that the message can be heard, the Holy Spirit must prepare the ground for the seed of the gospel to be planted much like whena farmer tills the soil prior to planting. For we are told in two places:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" -Jer. 17:9
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" -Mt. 15:19
The heart is where all sin starts, it is the seat of sin. And unless the heart be change, tilled, prepared beforehand, it does no good to listen to scripture being preached.
Back to John 16, we see that the Holy Spirit will "reprove (convict) of sin." And as shown before, the Holy Spirit must be working in the unbeliever prior to regeneration and conversion in order for reproof of sin to take place. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is working from with in to convict the unbeliever of his unrighteousness in comparison to Christ's righteousness, and at the same time, convicting the unbeliever of the judgment that is to come because of sin.
Once the sinner has had the ears circumcized, the heart prepared, and convicted, then the Holy Spirit regenerates the unbeliever so that they can have faith, a gift from God to the unbeliever through the Holy Spirit. You can only be saved by grace through faith. And you can't believe in something unless you have faith.
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." -Heb. 11:6
"Behold, as for the proud one, his soul is not right within him; but the righteous will live by faith." -Hab. 2:4
Faith preceeds believing. And faith is a gift of God given through the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3-9; Rom 12:3)
The Holy Spirit has to be working from within prior to conversion. The scriptures make this plain. And once all the conditions from above have been met, it brings the unbeliever to the point where they are regenerated so that they can have faith and believe.
I hope this is a little clearer.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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Good Day,
I guess this would depend upon your use of "born again". There are many good answers here just to add.
The gospel that is to be preached is that of repentance, that is the command. But how can man follow this command given the wickedness of his heart?
2Ch 30:1 And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto Jehovah, the God of Israel.
2Ch 30:2 For the king had taken counsel, and his princes, and all the assembly in Jerusalem, to keep the passover in the second month.
2Ch 30:3 For they could not keep it at that time, because the priests had not sanctified themselves in sufficient number, neither had the people gathered themselves together to Jerusalem.
2Ch 30:4 And the thing was right in the eyes of the king and of all the assembly.
2Ch 30:5 So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beer-sheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto Jehovah, the God of Israel, at Jerusalem: for they had not kept it in great numbers in such sort as it is written.
2Ch 30:6 So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, that he may return to the remnant that are escaped of you out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.
2Ch 30:7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, who trespassed against Jehovah, the God of their fathers, so that he gave them up to desolation, as ye see.
2Ch 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were; but yield yourselves unto Jehovah, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever, and serve Jehovah your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.
2Ch 30:9 For if ye turn again unto Jehovah, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that led them captive, and shall come again into this land: for Jehovah your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.
2Ch 30:10 So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them.
2Ch 30:11 Nevertheless certain men of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.
2Ch 30:12 Also upon Judah came the hand of God to give them one heart, to do the commandment of the king and of the princes by the word of Jehovah.
God gives the heart to "do" the commandment "repent".
In Him,
Bill
I guess this would depend upon your use of "born again". There are many good answers here just to add.
The gospel that is to be preached is that of repentance, that is the command. But how can man follow this command given the wickedness of his heart?
2Ch 30:1 And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto Jehovah, the God of Israel.
2Ch 30:2 For the king had taken counsel, and his princes, and all the assembly in Jerusalem, to keep the passover in the second month.
2Ch 30:3 For they could not keep it at that time, because the priests had not sanctified themselves in sufficient number, neither had the people gathered themselves together to Jerusalem.
2Ch 30:4 And the thing was right in the eyes of the king and of all the assembly.
2Ch 30:5 So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beer-sheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto Jehovah, the God of Israel, at Jerusalem: for they had not kept it in great numbers in such sort as it is written.
2Ch 30:6 So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, that he may return to the remnant that are escaped of you out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.
2Ch 30:7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, who trespassed against Jehovah, the God of their fathers, so that he gave them up to desolation, as ye see.
2Ch 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were; but yield yourselves unto Jehovah, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever, and serve Jehovah your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.
2Ch 30:9 For if ye turn again unto Jehovah, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that led them captive, and shall come again into this land: for Jehovah your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.
2Ch 30:10 So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them.
2Ch 30:11 Nevertheless certain men of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.
2Ch 30:12 Also upon Judah came the hand of God to give them one heart, to do the commandment of the king and of the princes by the word of Jehovah.
God gives the heart to "do" the commandment "repent".
In Him,
Bill
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Augustine didn't believe being born again happens before believe.
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
Chrysostom didn't say anything I would disagree with.
The quote. He is not saying God gives faith irresistably
"Neither is faith, he means, “of ourselves.” Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? "
It's because God calls us we have faith. This doesn't mean everyone he calls they will respond.
Born again is being born of the Spirit or born of above.
act 2:38 is saying repent and be baptized tghen you will recieve the H.S(or be born again).
Bill
God gives the heart to do the comandments but sometimes we choose to disobey him.
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Good Day, Orth
Indeed... those who he loves he chasens.
The point is with out God giving the heart, we can not do them.
In Him,
Bill
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Bill
I don't see that as unless you are born again you can't believe. I see it as unless God send someone to preach you can't come to him.
God changes one heart when they repent.
You see these people humbled themself and came to Jerusalem without God changing their heart.
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Good Day, Orth
This is due to your missuderstanding of what Born-agian means...
They can not do the command repent, untill they are given the heart by the hand of God.
A heart of wickness , can not repent.
2Ch 30:10 So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them.
2Ch 30:11 Nevertheless certain men of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.
2Ch 30:12 Also upon Judah came the hand of God to give them one heart, to do the commandment of the king and of the princes by the word of Jehovah.
Some from Manasseh, and Zebulun mocked, certain men from there came,
Also "as well as" judah as with those that humbled them self God gave Judah as well as those who did not mock.
In Him,
Bill
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Which quote assures my assertion, orthedoxy. Augustine taught the baptism of infants, and believed the Spirit regenerates through that baptism. He said nothing of infants believing before their baptism.
Augustine considered martyrs to have received baptism through their martyrdom.
So? The question is one of precedence, not of finding something you would disagree with.
Which is beside the focus of your question. As I said, if you focus on the question you asked, the answer is quite clear. If you focus on myriad other points of disagreement, that's just being argumentative.
"Being born" is not "receiving". You're saying they're the same. I'm saying they're not.
I receive lots of people at my door; I'm not born of them. It would be offensive to my parents to treat every guest as a father or mother.
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