Borders of the Kingdom

[Soon144k]

One of the most pressing issues in the U.S. today is the question of borders. The illegal alien problem stems from the fact that the borders of our country cannot contain the influx of 'undocumented' aliens into our society. The price and consequences of this situation is very high both in monetary and human terms.

Every 'kingdom' has defined borders, which marks the boundaries of the territory that is controlled by that particular kingdom. No kingdom/country can function for long without this line of demarkation being firmly established. Without these boundaries a kingdom cannot exist. The same is true for the Kingdom of Heaven.

What principle(s) act as the borders of the Kingdom of Heaven, and establish the boundaries which separate God's Kingdom from the kingdoms of the world?

 

[Joe67]

One of the most pressing issues in the U.S. today is the question of borders. The illegal alien problem stems from the fact that the borders of our country cannot contain the influx of 'undocumented' aliens into our society. The price and consequences of this situation is very high both in monetary and human terms.

Every 'kingdom' has defined borders, which marks the boundaries of the territory that is controlled by that particular kingdom. No kingdom/country can function for long without this line of demarkation being firmly established. Without these boundaries a kingdom cannot exist. The same is true for the Kingdom of Heaven.

What principle(s) act as the borders of the Kingdom of Heaven, and establish the boundaries which separate God's Kingdom from the kingdoms of the world?

Soon,

Heb 12:2
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. KJV

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

Soon,

Heb 12:2
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. KJV

Joe

Yes, Joe, I recognize that Jesus is the King of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth and in Heaven. My interest lies in what that Kingdom looks like from His standpoint and how we KNOW for SURE was are IN the Kingdom. The unasked question of Nicodemus that was answered by Jesus was "How does a person become saved?"

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God". John 3:5.

It seems that entering the Kingdom of Heaven is important for salvation. So what I would like to know from everyone is what your idea of the Kingdom looks like, and what steps do you need to take to get into the place where you can be saved.

 

[Joe67]

Yes, Joe, I recognize that Jesus is the King of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth and in Heaven. My interest lies in what that Kingdom looks like from His standpoint and how we KNOW for SURE was are IN the Kingdom. The unasked question of Nicodemus that was answered by Jesus was "How does a person become saved?"

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God". John 3:5.

It seems that entering the Kingdom of Heaven is important for salvation. So what I would like to know from everyone is what your idea of the Kingdom looks like, and what steps do you need to take to get into the place where you can be saved.

Soon,

You are asking as Nicodemus asked our Lord.

Our Lord's revelation of the same salvation is in a different form of words as expressed to the woman at the well. Her question came from the opposite spectrum of God's face.

Matt 11:18-19
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. KJV

EGW came neither eating or drinking and some say she had a devil.

Others eat and drink with publicans and sinners as they minister the word of faith, and some accuse them of being gluttonous and drunkards.

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

I get the fact the Jesus was accused of being something that He was not; this happens to all who love and practice the truth. Yet Jesus never once contradicted or misinterpreted scripture, which proves He was sent from God. John the Baptist did not contradict Scripture but he did misinterpret it, because he believed that Jesus would set himself up as King over Israel, and this did not happen. Why? Because there were two possible fulfillments of the prophecies concerning the coming of and the role of the Messiah in Israel. John believed that one was true when in fact it was the other that was true.

EGW can make no such claim against her understanding and misinterpretation end time prophecy, because for her, and us, there is only ONE possible outcome and ONE possible overall fulfillment of the end-time prophecies in Revelation. Through her writings and interpretation of prophecy she is leading the bondservants of Jesus astray (Rev.2:19-23), and also through her own visions, about which she claims no prophetic gift just being a messenger of God. How she can claim that she is receiving visions about the end of time from God and still maintains that she is not a prophet is a mystery to me.

I do agree with you, though, that people that get down and dirty with the masses to bring them the truth often are accused of the same behavior as those masses enjoy. This is not fair, but it is a proactive way of showing the love of God to them through the truth.

 

[Joe67]

I get the fact the Jesus was accused of being something that He was not; this happens to all who love and practice the truth. Yet Jesus never once contradicted or misinterpreted scripture, which proves He was sent from God. John the Baptist did not contradict Scripture but he did misinterpret it, because he believed that Jesus would set himself up as King over Israel, and this did not happen. Why? Because there were two possible fulfillments of the prophecies concerning the coming of and the role of the Messiah in Israel. John believed that one was true when in fact it was the other that was true.

EGW can make no such claim against her understanding and misinterpretation end time prophecy, because for her, and us, there is only ONE possible outcome and ONE possible overall fulfillment of the end-time prophecies in Revelation. Through her writings and interpretation of prophecy she is leading the bondservants of Jesus astray (Rev.2:19-23), and also through her own visions, about which she claims no prophetic gift just being a messenger of God. How she can claim that she is receiving visions about the end of time from God and still maintains that she is not a prophet is a mystery to me.

I do agree with you, though, that people that get down and dirty with the masses to bring them the truth often are accused of the same behavior as those masses enjoy. This is not fair, but it is a proactive way of showing the love of God to them through the truth.

Soon,

The Lord sent a lying spirit to speak through the mouth of Ahab's prophets. They told him he would gain the victory in battle. Ahab and his prophets had itching ears.

Prophecies of peace in this world lead the people astray.

EGW was blessed with the same spiritual victories as King David concerning the mercy of God. They both were led to make the same short coming in desiring a material kingdom in the service of the Lord. Yet we have all sinned in this matter of desiring a material kingdom and have come short of the glory of God. The Lord does not impute our iniquity against us. But when he shows it to us, he tells us to go and sin no more.

We can only repent for sin, when the Lord gives us to see the evil in our good and he gives us repentance and discipline.

Forgiveness for transgressing is for the children and it is a necessary beginning.

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

Joe,
Is it possible to not feel the need to repent because you don't believe that you have anything to repent from? What if this belief is wrong, and you don't believe your understanding is incorrect, when it is. The idea of Leodicea is that they don't realize that they are poor, wretched, blind and naked.

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Rev.3:17.

Do not those that believe that EGW is correct in all of her understanding and in her own prophecies fall into this category? Is this not what Jesus is saying in the message to the assembly of Leodicea as a warning that they need to realize that what they believe is wrong and they need to repent? What is Jesus asking for people to remember in the message to Sardis that they must repent from? As you said, we can only repent from sin. If the assemblies in Rev. 2 and 3 have nothing from which to repent then why would Jesus require them to repent? That doesn't make sense. These assemblies represent the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of time. They are the ones that will be held accountable for their deeds in either taking the message of truth to the world, or not. If they are taking the wrong message would this not qualify as something from which they would need to repent? I believe it would make sense for us to understand whether or not the message we are taking to the world is the correct message, because if it isn't then we will be in BIG trouble when the Master returns.

 

[Laodicean]

Soon, you seem to be quite able to decide that others are wrong or have a wrong understanding. Have you considered that you could be the one that is wrong or have a wrong understanding? And if you have considered this, and you have now decided that you are right, is it possible that you may be feeling that you are rich and increased with the goods of your knowledge derived from books written by fallible men, when actually you are wretched and poor and blind and naked?

Just something for you to consider while pointing out the wrongs in others. "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

 

[Soon144k]

Soon, you seem to be quite able to decide that others are wrong or have a wrong understanding. Have you considered that you could be the one that is wrong or have a wrong understanding? And if you have considered this, and you have now decided that you are right, is it possible that you may be feeling that you are rich and increased with the goods of your knowledge derived from books written by fallible men, when actually you are wretched and poor and blind and naked?

Just something for you to consider while pointing out the wrongs in others. "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

Good point, and I think about this every day. The only protection I have against error is that I trust in the words and teachings of Jesus above everyone else. This seems to work, at least for me. Jesus warned us (Matt.24:4) that it is up to us to not be deceived, not up to anyone else. Because of that warning I certainly don't trust myself in my own strength to not be deceived. Therefore, if what is presented to me as truth does not meet the criteria of agreeing with the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as he gave them to His own eyewitness disciples then I reject it as truth, and this is what protects me from believing a lie as if it is the truth.

 

[Joe67]

Joe,
Is it possible to not feel the need to repent because you don't believe that you have anything to repent from? What if this belief is wrong, and you don't believe your understanding is incorrect, when it is. The idea of Leodicea is that they don't realize that they are poor, wretched, blind and naked.

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Rev.3:17.

Do not those that believe that EGW is correct in all of her understanding and in her own prophecies fall into this category? Is this not what Jesus is saying in the message to the assembly of Leodicea as a warning that they need to realize that what they believe is wrong and they need to repent? What is Jesus asking for people to remember in the message to Sardis that they must repent from? As you said, we can only repent from sin. If the assemblies in Rev. 2 and 3 have nothing from which to repent then why would Jesus require them to repent? That doesn't make sense. These assemblies represent the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of time. They are the ones that will be held accountable for their deeds in either taking the message of truth to the world, or not. If they are taking the wrong message would this not qualify as something from which they would need to repent? I believe it would make sense for us to understand whether or not the message we are taking to the world is the correct message, because if it isn't then we will be in BIG trouble when the Master returns.

Soon,

Remember when Jesus our Lord told James and John they did not know what was their spirit?

Luke 9:54-56
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. KJV

This is the status of the church of Laodicea. Like the disciples, they are reproved and they are members of the family of heaven and earth.

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

Soon,

Remember when Jesus our Lord told James and John they did not know what was their spirit?

Luke 9:54-56
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. KJV

This is the status of the church of Laodicea. Like the disciples, they are reproved and they are members of the family of heaven and earth.

Joe

Is this particular story confirmed by any of the eyewitness disciples in the gospels of Matthew, Mark (writing for Peter), and John? If not, I have a difficult time believing what Luke wrote here as actually having been spoken by Jesus.

The message to the assembly in Leodicea (Rev.3) indicates a current (right now, today) spiritual condition. And yes, this condition applies to the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. Jesus is giving this information so as to reprove these people and get them to repent. Repent from what? From thinking that they know-it-all about salvation and prophecy and righteousness. This must mean that what they know right now IS NOT CORRECT, either in whole or in part. What do we know right now that we believe is the way salvation, prophecy and righteousness works? Find that out and we will know what we need to look at in order to find out whether we have ALL the truth or not.

Right now this will be very difficult to accomplish, because those that need to look at this information and make these decisions are sound asleep (Rev.3:3).

 

[Joe67]

Is this particular story confirmed by any of the eyewitness disciples in the gospels of Matthew, Mark (writing for Peter), and John? If not, I have a difficult time believing what Luke wrote here as actually having been spoken by Jesus.

The message to the assembly in Leodicea (Rev.3) indicates a current (right now, today) spiritual condition. And yes, this condition applies to the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. Jesus is giving this information so as to reprove these people and get them to repent. Repent from what? From thinking that they know-it-all about salvation and prophecy and righteousness. This must mean that what they know right now IS NOT CORRECT, either in whole or in part. What do we know right now that we believe is the way salvation, prophecy and righteousness works? Find that out and we will know what we need to look at in order to find out whether we have ALL the truth or not.

Right now this will be very difficult to accomplish, because those that need to look at this information and make these decisions are sound asleep (Rev.3:3).

Soon,

We are all asleep, in our flesh. Our Lord awakens us in our spirit. In our inner man he communicates with us concerning his work in this world; his thoughts, his ways, his purpose.

Our outer man is perishing (being handed over to Satan for the destruction of our flesh) as our inner man is being renewed daily after the image of Jesus Christ, who suffered in doing the Father's will.

The Lord begins his communication with us in our outer man, concerning the ways and thoughts that he gives to us as man. Many are called through this wide gate. This is his common salvation for the nations. Our idolatry is cut off from us by the sword from his mouth. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the bruises that we receive under the rod of iron.

Then the gate at the other end is very narrow and only one can go through it at a given time. We must tread the wine press alone, thought we are not alone for our Lord is with us through his Spirit, guiding us into and through this valley of the shadow of death. Thus, he chooses us to be part of his family of priests to minister to the nations. We cease to be his counselor.

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

It is truly tragic that you have accepted without reservation the gnositc doctrine of the separation of the soul from the body. This is a teaching of Paul that was NEVER taught by Jesus Christ or in the OT. It is this gnostic doctrine (which stems from pagan cultures) that allows Paul to believe not only in the conscious soul going to heaven when a person dies, but also in the predestination of that soul to either life or death, based on the whim of the Almighty.

PLEASE carefully compare what Jesus Christ taught to His own disciples (eyewitnesses) about this, and the warnings He gave them about it being up to them to not be deceived (Matt.24:4). If you need a place to begin this search you can start with a book The Spirit of the Church by Sterling and Neufeld. It exposes the deception of Paul in an easy to understand format, and will present evidence from the New Testament that shows that Paul was not who he claimed to be. Here is the site that will give you some further info on this book: The Spirit of the church 

 

[Joe67]

Soon,

Even now we are redeemed by the blood of the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Root of David, and he has made us kings and priests unto our God, and we serve upon the earth (for 1000yrs). The new Jerusalem has come down to us, through the Spirit and we minister under our high priest and chief corner stone, Jesus our Lord, the Christ of God the Father. "Your kingdom come, your will be done, in earth, as it is in heaven."

A thousand years are as a day, an evening past. "The night comes when no man will work."

Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. KJV

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

Soon,

Even now we are redeemed by the blood of the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Root of David, and he has made us kings and priests unto our God, and we serve upon the earth (for 1000yrs). The new Jerusalem has come down to us, through the Spirit and we minister under our high priest and chief corner stone, Jesus our Lord, the Christ of God the Father. "Your kingdom come, your will be done, in earth, as it is in heaven."

A thousand years are as a day, an evening past. "The night comes when no man will work."

Rev 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. KJV

Joe

You are demonstrating a perfect example of turning prophecy concerning literal events and times into devotional and spiritual applications that are only for spiritual growth and development. It is not that this is a bad thing in itself except then you miss the important elements of the prophecies that will have direct impact on you life during the appointed time of the end.

When Jesus speaks of the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven has not yet happened, but will happen in the future AFTER the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls of Wrath, and after the 1000 years that the saints are in heaven. This is a literal event and not just an individual spiritual event that happens when you make the claim that you are now 'born again'. If you are truly 'born again' you NO LONGER SIN, and I don't know of anyone that has accomplished that as yet.

 

[Joe67]

You are demonstrating a perfect example of turning prophecy concerning literal events and times into devotional and spiritual applications that are only for spiritual growth and development. It is not that this is a bad thing in itself except then you miss the important elements of the prophecies that will have direct impact on you life during the appointed time of the end.

When Jesus speaks of the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven has not yet happened, but will happen in the future AFTER the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls of Wrath, and after the 1000 years that the saints are in heaven. This is a literal event and not just an individual spiritual event that happens when you make the claim that you are now 'born again'. If you are truly 'born again' you NO LONGER SIN, and I don't know of anyone that has accomplished that as yet.

Soon,

Those that are born again (from above) they do not commit sin for their seed remains in them, and they live the rest of their lives to the will of God and not after the lusts of men, thereby they have ceased from sin.

If any man says that he has no sin, he is a liar.

The inside of the cup is the first work and then the outside will take care of itself.

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

Soon,

Those that are born again (from above) they do not commit sin for their seed remains in them, and they live the rest of their lives to the will of God and not after the lusts of men, thereby they have ceased from sin.

If any man says that he has no sin, he is a liar.

The inside of the cup is the first work and then the outside will take care of itself.

Joe

I agree. So what do you do with people that claim they are 'born again' and still continue sinning because the believe that they have been 'saved by grace through faith' and their works no longer matter?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I agree. So what do you do with people that claim they are 'born again' and still continue sinning because the believe that they have been 'saved by grace through faith' and their works no longer matter?

What do we do with people who claim to be without sin?

Is there more than one who is good??

BFA

 

[Soon144k]

What do we do with people who claim to be without sin?

Is there more than one who is good??

BFA

My question is base in the fact that most Christians believe that they are 'born again' and therefore without sin based on being saved by grace through faith. And yet they still sin, and admit to it because they believe that the blood of the sacrifice of Jesus 'covers' their sins so that the Father doesn't see the sins they continue to commit but is fooled into thinking that they are without sin, even though they still have sin in their lives.

Is this a correct assumption on my part, or am I missing something?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Soon . . . Just curious about your background. It might help me get to know you a bit better. What is your connection to Seventh-day Adventists? Are you an SDA? Have you ever been an SDA?

My question is base in the fact that most Christians believe that they are 'born again' and therefore without sin based on being saved by grace through faith.

Although I don't know most Christians, this isn't my belief or the belief of anyone I personally know. Therefore, I'm wondering whether this is truly the belief of most Christians. Perhaps this is merely your perception of most Christians.

And yet they still sin

Indeed they do.

and admit to it

Indeed they should.

because they believe that the blood of the sacrifice of Jesus 'covers' their sins so that the Father doesn't see the sins they continue to commit but is fooled into thinking that they are without sin, even though they still have sin in their lives.

The concept of the wedding garment does not come from Paul's writings, nor does it assume that the undergarments worn under the wedding garment are clean. Believers sin, regardless of their theology.

Is this a correct assumption on my part, or am I missing something?

For me and my perspective, it isn't a correct assumption. I don't believe that being "saved by grace through faith" means the same thing as being "without sin."

BFA