Boards dont hit back..a question for the martial artists.

[JesusWalks78]

I have studied various arts in my life, I started out with boxing when I was four, Judo when I was nine, TKD, Yau Kung Mun, Hapkido (my base art), Goju Ryu Karate & Systema.

Having seen both sports and combat oriented arts, I have combined what I found to be effective into a style I call "Tabu Soro" it also contains weapon work with daggers and traditional Fijian war clubs.

Now I have received numerous requests from the parents of young children to train them. Currently I do not teach anyone that is under twelve because this art is combat oriented and the training is painful and very hard. In my hall I control everything and everything is taught in a very controlled manner so that the pain is present but no one gets hurt. We do Golden Bell/Iron Shirt basically pounding each other to condition the body for blows, we breathe and meditate (Tan Jong Breathing) and in a two hour class one hour is dedicated to discussion about control and avoiding confrontation.

I do not teach children because I have seen the six year old black belts and do not believe that a six year old child can handle the kind of pressure I will put them under....however my son at four years will begin with boxing at nine take Judo and TKD and when he turns twelve I will allow him to start learning from me.

Every movement that you learn will ensure that your opponent winds up in a very bad way either locked up, crippled or dead. The discipline must be present and every fight must be reported back to me and if I find that the person involved started the fight he is no longer welcome in my hall.

Basically this has to do with the ethics of allowing children to train in a combat style martial art...do you agree or not agree.

Please can the responses come from actual martial artists, not those whose husband/wives are grandmasters or have watched enough bruce lee films to qualify as an armchair blackbelt.

 

[kopilo]

I believe anyone who has not reached a maturity level where they can control themselves in all situations should not be taught something that can cause harm.

And no I am not a martial artists (not even an armchair blackbelt) but I have done fencing over a few years.

 

[JesusWalks78]

I believe anyone who has not reached a maturity level where they can control themselves in all situations should not be taught something that can cause harm.

And no I am not a martial artists (not even an armchair blackbelt) but I have done fencing over a few years.

Fencingteaches excellent balance, I wish I had the opportunity. BTW Fencing is a martial art.

 

[Ryal Kane]

Obviously there are a huge umber of things you can teach children that can be used to hurt people. A rugby tackle or a baseball bat swing are appropriate on the field but can be dangerous outside it.

Obviously martial arts are a little different, in that they are designed for combat use, but it is in the application of the technique, rather than the knowledge that the danger lies. As I understand it most martial arts are taught with a great deal of discipline, especially at a young age. Children can essentially be taught not to fight unless absolutely neccesary and I think that is a good thing. Furthermore, there is an element of understanding about what a technique actually feels like when hit with it. Granted, this might lead to it being used inaa way the user knows it will hurt, but more often it will grant rspect and empathy. So long as children are taught the underlying philosophy of nonviolence, of guaging situations, of diplomacy and the use of force, then I don't see a big problem with it.

It's true, there will be bad eggs but most often they will be the ones who would hurt people regardless. There will be bad eggs among the trainers too and this is what has to be scutinized the most.

 

[DaRkWoLf]

Its ethical as long as they can handle it and what its real application is.

When does a child become a young adult? Age is irrelevant really; if you determine that the subject is intellectually mature enough, has the right mindset, and also has the emotional stability not to explode, in addition to being physically capable, there isn't a reason to refuse them instruction.

Now I have received numerous requests from the parents of young children to train them. Currently I do not teach anyone that is under twelve because this art is combat oriented and the training is painful and very hard.

You're not a babysitter or a belt mill when it comes to MA instruction. Do the parents who have inquired know what/how you are teaching? If you said you'd be glad to teach their kid the abilities needed to kill anyone who threatened harm to them and theirs with the utmost efficiency, what would their reaction be?

Question: are you planning to add any Escrima or Kali concepts to Tabu Soro? Shortstick/defensive knife approaches sound like they would make it quite a balanced and powerful art since you have the Karate and TKD for the linear work, Hapkido for the blending and fluidity, Judo for the ground work, and Yau Kung Mun for defensive styling but not any real powerful and street practical weapons work.

Where on planet earth did you learn real Systema or was it something you studied from media? Were your instructors credentials good?

 

[JesusWalks78]

Its ethical as long as they can handle it and what its real application is.

I dont think any child at that age should be taught kill techs, maybe a little Judo o r another sport martial art....but Tabu Soro is meant to be an art that protects its individuals by disabling your opponent.

When does a child become a young adult? Age is irrelevant really; if you determine that the subject is intellectually mature enough, has the right mindset, and also has the emotional stability not to explode, in addition to being physically capable, there isn't a reason to refuse them instruction.

For me it isnt the intellect, its the physique...I wialk around with mu Gumdo Stick, I expect nothing less than 120% concentration, I do not tolerate horsing around or speaking unless there is a legitimate question....I expect Iron Discipline, I have removed people for distracting the class and banned them from ever returning.

I often strike the students that are goofing off, challenging them to step on the mat with me so as to pick them aprt a little to show them how far they have to go in their training. Thats the way I was taght and that is the way i teach.

You're not a babysitter or a belt mill when it comes to MA instruction. Do the parents who have inquired know what/how you are teaching?

Alot of them are fathers that want there kids to be Bruce Lee, I dont do that type of training I usually invite them to watch a session and bring their wives (the mothers usually stop their children from coming once I go into my "correct procedure to snap a neck" talk).

Question: are you planning to add any Escrima or Kali concepts to Tabu Soro? Shortstick/defensive knife approaches sound like they would make it quite a balanced and powerful art since you have the Karate and TKD for the linear work, Hapkido for the blending and fluidity, Judo for the ground work, and Yau Kung Mun for defensive styling but not any real powerful and street practical weapons work.

I work with knives already, I train with the Fiji Military and part time teach the recruits at the Police Academy....so I am well versed with the knife and it is included, that the cane knife, the bo and the wau (the wau is a club but it could be a lead pipe a axe handle anything).

Where on planet earth did you learn real Systema or was it something you studied from media? Were your instructors credentials good?

I have a friend that started a Jet Ski business in Fiji he was in the Russain Military for a long time and his Brother in Law as well....its interesting but I found systema to be more of an attitude than a sum of its techniques the same with Krav Magna.

 

[rppearso]

I practiced ninjisu and TKD for about 5 years and I figure thats enough hand to hand to get you away from me to draw a gun and kill you. I am getting back into TKD, but I mainly train with my 9mm and G-3 (0.308). I never understood the logic of training in such extreme martial arts as long as you always have a fire arm and know enough hand to hand to thwart a sucker attack.

 

[JesusWalks78]

I practiced ninjisu and TKD for about 5 years and I figure thats enough hand to hand to get you away from me to draw a gun and kill you. I am getting back into TKD, but I mainly train with my 9mm and G-3 (0.308). I never understood the logic of training in such extreme martial arts as long as you always have a fire arm and know enough hand to hand to thwart a sucker attack.

People in Fiji dont carry firearms.

 

[rppearso]

People in Fiji dont carry firearms.

You mean there not suppost to, of course having a weapon and not being proficient with it is worse than not having it at all. In hostile regions of the world, if you are from the US or some other 1st world country I would always have a fire arm and be prepared to get out of dodge in a moments notice because often times the police are just as bad as the criminals, so shooting either one would not hurt my feelings.

 

[Spherical Time]

Part of growing up is learning to be responsible, even when your power is greater than another's. Six years might be a little young, but if I thought they were mature enough to handle it, I might consider letting them train in martial arts.

I would probably not let them train in what you do, because I think it would be child abuse to beat a six year old to make them more resistant to blows.

 

[JesusWalks78]

Part of growing up is learning to be responsible, even when your power is greater than another's. Six years might be a little young, but if I thought they were mature enough to handle it, I might consider letting them train in martial arts.

I would probably not let them train in what you do, because I think it would be child abuse to beat a six year old to make them more resistant to blows.

The strikes are very controlled and are not meant to do any damage, but to prepare the student for receiving blows and not be shocked by it but continue moving.

Iron Shirt/Golden Bell is a accepted practice by many combat arts.

I do understand what you are saying and it is one of the reasons that I dont want to teach children...I believe that children should start off with a more sport oriented art then move up to a combat style one. However even in the sport martial art they will be hit and hurt occasionally in tournaments etc.

 

[JesusWalks78]

You mean there not suppost to, of course having a weapon and not being proficient with it is worse than not having it at all. In hostile regions of the world, if you are from the US or some other 1st world country I would always have a fire arm and be prepared to get out of dodge in a moments notice because often times the police are just as bad as the criminals, so shooting either one would not hurt my feelings.

No I mean we dont have guns at all. Only the Militar....the Police Tactical Unit only started to have firearms last year, and even then it is only one unit that takes it on speacial cases. The Police force here rely on battons not bullets.

 

[DaRkWoLf]

I dont think any child at that age should be taught kill techs, maybe a little Judo o r another sport martial art....but Tabu Soro is meant to be an art that protects its individuals by disabling your opponent.

I'm outspokenly against sport arts (I'm not going to discuss them or you rationale, just pointing out my perspective).

The Judo and a lot of work on ukemi is probably a good start for youngsters that would take a fair amount of time to perfect.

Why do you personally feel that regardless of maturity level children shouldn't know lethal techniques?

For me it isnt the intellect, its the physique...I wialk around with mu Gumdo Stick, I expect nothing less than 120% concentration, I do not tolerate horsing around or speaking unless there is a legitimate question....I expect Iron Discipline, I have removed people for distracting the class and banned them from ever returning.

Interesting. I'm more worried about intellect whenever I'm considering teaching a combative to anyone. I can always beat someone into shape but if their brain and the mindset isn't there its just a waste of my time to even consider instructing them. I agree with the rest of what you've said here wholeheartedly and applaud your use of the stick.

I often strike the students that are goofing off, challenging them to step on the mat with me so as to pick them aprt a little to show them how far they have to go in their training. Thats the way I was taght and that is the way i teach.

Sounds good, though I'm more in favor of high quantities of a physically strenuous exercise than striking for goofing off.

Alot of them are fathers that want there kids to be Bruce Lee, I dont do that type of training I usually invite them to watch a session and bring their wives (the mothers usually stop their children from coming once I go into my "correct procedure to snap a neck" talk).

Good approach to the problem.

I have a friend that started a Jet Ski business in Fiji he was in the Russain Military for a long time and his Brother in Law as well....its interesting but I found systema to be more of an attitude than a sum of its techniques the same with Krav Magna.

Awesome. Remember, attitude wins more fights than good techniques. Krav Maga is an extremely powerful combat art because of the mindset. I'd be interested in comparing Krav to Systema one day.

 

[DaRkWoLf]

I practiced ninjisu and TKD for about 5 years and I figure thats enough hand to hand to get you away from me to draw a gun and kill you. I am getting back into TKD, but I mainly train with my 9mm and G-3 (0.308). I never understood the logic of training in such extreme martial arts as long as you always have a fire arm and know enough hand to hand to thwart a sucker attack.

Where did you learn your ninjitsu? The Bujinkan? Is your TKD more sport oriented or does it actually try to be combative?

If your buying time to draw a weapon I think you need to revisit your ninjitsu training. Also, if your in unarmed hand to hand that generally means you've lost retention of your side arm and BUG (if you have it) and knife/knives or are ridiculously slow. Legality wise, in a civi shooting, if you've actually laid someone out to really have enough time to get back, draw, and fire chances are you're in for hell at civil and criminal court.

I recommend the Teueller Drill, some Shoot/Dont Shoot drills, and some Threat ID training.

As for training in MAs, they're tools in the shed. Do you carry a spare mag or train to shoot outside of 7 yards (statistics are most defensive gunfights don't involve mag changes or go over 7 yards)? If so its the same reason why others train in combative MAs. Skills to pull out when/if needed.

Btw, do you have a G3 or a HK91?

Part of growing up is learning to be responsible, even when your power is greater than another's. Six years might be a little young, but if I thought they were mature enough to handle it, I might consider letting them train in martial arts.

Agreed.

I would probably not let them train in what you do, because I think it would be child abuse to beat a six year old to make them more resistant to blows.

It takes a special six year old to learn a combative art, but for 99% of the time, I agree. I have no ethical problem with that rare case going through with it though.

 

[Tenka]

Sounds great overall, I studied Tae Kwon Do from an early age before changing to gymnastics. Where I lived, kids wanted to fight me as soon as they learned I was studying MA which was unfortunate.

Will you be teaching girls?

 

[JesusWalks78]

I'm outspokenly against sport arts (I'm not going to discuss them or you rationale, just pointing out my perspective).

So am I, I just think it teaches the children the basic blocks and strikes and it makes my life a litle easier.

The Judo and a lot of work on ukemi is probably a good start for youngsters that would take a fair amount of time to perfect.

Agreed, its where I started.

Why do you personally feel that regardless of maturity level children shouldn't know lethal techniques?

Generally children get into alot more fights than adults. Giving them more opportunity to feel that they should use the techniques.

Interesting. I'm more worried about intellect whenever I'm considering teaching a combative to anyone. I can always beat someone into shape but if their brain and the mindset isn't there its just a waste of my time to even consider instructing them. I agree with the rest of what you've said here wholeheartedly and applaud your use of the stick.

I make the use of the stick very clear to everyone including parents if they dont like it they cant complain about it later.

As to the intellect it is important, but the physique is the wrong word...I mean stamina I work people untill they drop...thats how I was taught, I cant do that to little kids.

Sounds good, though I'm more in favor of high quantities of a physically strenuous exercise than striking for goofing off.

The striking comes with strenuopus physical exercise.

Good approach to the problem.

It works.

Awesome. Remember, attitude wins more fights than good techniques. Krav Maga is an extremely powerful combat art because of the mindset. I'd be interested in comparing Krav to Systema one day.

I agree attitude and mindset are 90% of any battle.

 

[JesusWalks78]

Sounds great overall, I studied Tae Kwon Do from an early age before changing to gymnastics. Where I lived, kids wanted to fight me as soon as they learned I was studying MA which was unfortunate.

Thats an unfortunate story and one I can say happened to me as did most martial artists that studied as children...it still happens to me now.

Will you be teaching girls?

I do teach women, but I do not teach them Tabu Soro. I offer my services for free to Rape victims and victims of violent crimes. I teach a womens self defense class.

However Tabu Soro is something that ties in with my traditional status. I am a part Eurpean and my ancestor brought Guns in and stopped the Tongans from taking control of Fiji. As a reward he was given the daughters of chiefs as his wives (something like 40 of them) he was made a VUNI VALU or War Chief a very high position. For a long time they killed all his male children because they would be to powerful, but in the end he managed to keep twenty of them alive. He did this by never showing the Fijians how to repair the weapons (thats what stopped them from eating him at first) and said he would only teach his sons...so they let them live.

The Bati (Warrior clan) is traditionally a male dominated section and I have decided that because alot of what i teach is tied in with the philosophies of the Bati that I wont teach it to women.

It is also part of a larger plan that i have.

 

[kopilo]

Fencingteaches excellent balance, I wish I had the opportunity. BTW Fencing is a martial art.

Ahh thanks (sorry wasn't sure that it was considered a martial art), and yeah I started it becuase I thought I should take the opportunity whilst it was avaliable.

 

[rppearso]

Where did you learn your ninjitsu? The Bujinkan? Is your TKD more sport oriented or does it actually try to be combative?

If your buying time to draw a weapon I think you need to revisit your ninjitsu training. Also, if your in unarmed hand to hand that generally means you've lost retention of your side arm and BUG (if you have it) and knife/knives or are ridiculously slow. Legality wise, in a civi shooting, if you've actually laid someone out to really have enough time to get back, draw, and fire chances are you're in for hell at civil and criminal court.

I recommend the Teueller Drill, some Shoot/Dont Shoot drills, and some Threat ID training.

As for training in MAs, they're tools in the shed. Do you carry a spare mag or train to shoot outside of 7 yards (statistics are most defensive gunfights don't involve mag changes or go over 7 yards)? If so its the same reason why others train in combative MAs. Skills to pull out when/if needed.

Btw, do you have a G3 or a HK91?


Agreed.

It takes a special six year old to learn a combative art, but for 99% of the time, I agree. I have no ethical problem with that rare case going through with it though.

In our state they have actually relaxed the laws quite a bit as far as leathal force, they have what is called a stand your ground law, if someone attacks you, you dont have to make an attempt to run or hid and risk loss of property you can kill them on the spot and are automaticly relased from any legal persecution. Of course they will investigate to make sure you dident just randomly shoot someone and that they actually instigated the incident. But as far as these rediculus laws that some states have where you have to be shot at to defend yourself our state has done away with. Usually when I go into situations where something like that is more likely to occue I have a buddy with me that sports a H&K subcompact and an M-4. I have a remake of the G-3 with a 3-9 power leopold scope, a real G-3 is about 3,500$ so maybe I will get one one of these days. With the firepower we carry there should be no need for a mag change since we are both military trained. I studied ninjisu in denver colorado under shidoshi speakman and he was a 6th or 7th degree, when I found the school and was training I had no idea how rare it was to find someone who taught it until I moved back to alaska now im disapointed because there are no schools up here that teach it but a least I can finish up getting my TKD black belt, the TKD I had before was more combat oriented, for thoes impractical kicks, he would demonstrate them and have us do a few and that was it, he focused on stuff we could actually use, and then in ninjitsu it was all practical.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I have studied various arts in my life, I started out with boxing when I was four, Judo when I was nine, TKD, Yau Kung Mun, Hapkido (my base art), Goju Ryu Karate & Systema.

Having seen both sports and combat oriented arts, I have combined what I found to be effective into a style I call "Tabu Soro" it also contains weapon work with daggers and traditional Fijian war clubs.

Now I have received numerous requests from the parents of young children to train them. Currently I do not teach anyone that is under twelve because this art is combat oriented and the training is painful and very hard. In my hall I control everything and everything is taught in a very controlled manner so that the pain is present but no one gets hurt. We do Golden Bell/Iron Shirt basically pounding each other to condition the body for blows, we breathe and meditate (Tan Jong Breathing) and in a two hour class one hour is dedicated to discussion about control and avoiding confrontation.

I do not teach children because I have seen the six year old black belts and do not believe that a six year old child can handle the kind of pressure I will put them under....however my son at four years will begin with boxing at nine take Judo and TKD and when he turns twelve I will allow him to start learning from me.

Every movement that you learn will ensure that your opponent winds up in a very bad way either locked up, crippled or dead. The discipline must be present and every fight must be reported back to me and if I find that the person involved started the fight he is no longer welcome in my hall.

Basically this has to do with the ethics of allowing children to train in a combat style martial art...do you agree or not agree.

Please can the responses come from actual martial artists, not those whose husband/wives are grandmasters or have watched enough bruce lee films to qualify as an armchair blackbelt.

Hey JW. Sounds like you're out to build warrior machines. No nonsense with you I guess. What you're describing reminds me of the military combat styles. You're 100% right that it shouldn't be taught to kids. Maybe when they're 16 or 18.

Of course it's OK to teach general martial arts to kids. Some kids, particularly the bully targets, really need it. In fact sport martial arts like judo or kendo are particularly good for kids because they can learn discipline so long as they're not at a McDojo. I like the traditional Japanese teachings personally.

Personally I wouldn't want to teach kids just because of the difficulty. But don't let that stop you. Just water it down a little or something. Teach them how to block, how to kick. How to punch. Some forms. How to get out of a bear hug. How to fall safely. Etc. You don't have to turn them into Universal Soldier.

Come to think of it, martial arts could be a great way to teach ethics to kids. Like for example in Aikido we bow to eachother a lot. Why? Because bowing is a mark of respect for one another. If you respect someone you won't try to hurt them. Bingo!