Black Amerindians

NannaNae · Jan 4, 2015

I have explained all I will explain to you .
I gave you enough information to figure it out yourself.
go find what I have shown you and learn it for yourself.
why must I think for you?

it is only scientism that demands to think for everyone else .
and trust me when I say you get you pay for with that lot.
God demands we think for ourselves.
go do that!

Skaloop · Jan 4, 2015

NannaNae said:
I have explained all I will explain to you .
I gave you enough information to figure it out yourself.
go find what I have said and learn it for yourself.
why must I think for you?

Because you have explained nothing, nada, zilch. You've provided some genetic information and some Bible verses without anything connecting the two. I can't read your mind, so it's impossible for me to understand what connection you are trying to make when there are potentially several that I could come up with. But I want to get the correct one. I don't want you to think for me, I want to tell me what you are thinking. Then I'll think about it. But as of now, you have not supplied anything worth thinking about.

it is only scientism that demands to think for everyone else .
God demands we think for ourselves.
go do that!

OK, fine, I will think on what you wrote.

My thoughts are that you are incoherently rambling about scientific information that you do not understand in a vain attempt to disprove it by parroting Bible verses that don't apply in any meaningful way to the scientific information you provided, and when called on it rather than attempting to provide an explanation for something you can't comprehend you hand wave me away with the suggestion that it is my fault that you can't compose an intelligible argument.

NannaNae · Jan 4, 2015

and won't , and don't ! your lose !
done!
first of all some of what I was trying to describe to you is ancient knowledge that you will probably never understand.
and neither will your priest.
now I have been trying to explain it to my christian brothers and sister so that maybe creation scientists will figure it out.

but so far .. no go
i'm done. bye!

Skaloop · Jan 4, 2015

NannaNae said:
and won't , and don't ! your lose !
done!
first of all some of what I was trying to describe to you is ancient knowledge that you will probably never understand.

Try me.

and neither will your priest.

I don't have a priest.

now I have been trying to explain it to my christian brothers and sister so that maybe creation scientists will figure it out.

but so far .. no go
i'm done. bye!

So nobody can under stand what you are trying to explain, but again, it's all our fault...

NannaNae · Jan 4, 2015

SuperCloud said:
Here a video about this. I did not watch most the video but I was intrigued by the fact some black phenotype people actually where reared on the reservation.

To me... if you were raised on a rez and raised among an Amerindian nation then you qualify as being just in calling yourself Indian.

However, and many ethnic Black-Americans know this, there are so many Black-Americans that claim to have Indian ancestry or more especially credit their "good hair" to being part Amerindian from some long lost relative, that it is hard to take some of these claims seriously at times.

My Black-American grandmother's mother was supposedly Indian or part Indian. So, after I became an adult in my early 20s I asked her about this. She said her mother was part Indian but she did not know what kind of Indian because she didn't have long hair like her mother so never asked her. She sent me to her sister to ask her and find out. So I did and my great aunt said their mother was Creek Indian. First time I ever heard of Creeks. So I looked them up and found out a lot of Creeks mixed with blacks in the South (my grandmother was from the South).

But then her son--my father--had a DNA test done. And no Amerindian ancestry was found.

So, truth or legend?

Some of this controversy over who is mixed with--or more especially *is*--Indian was discussed on a mixed race website I used go on a long time ago.

I remember one white Latino (from Latin America) who had a darker mestizo father could not get along with a fellow poster on the website who was white phenotype as he was (they both posted their photos) but identified exclusively as Indian. The Latino would keep telling the other guy he was not Indian which would anger the other guy. But you can see how the Amerindian population in the U.S. has swelled in numbers (in certain Indian nations) as they included more people that in Latin America would be viewed as mestizo or mixed. Whereas in Latin America where "full blooded" people are only counted their numbers have often dwindled.

The again... in Brazil blacks or mixed race peoples that live in the amazon forest and have been reared up in some of those "native" forest customs identify themselves as "Indian" or "forest people" which supposedly connotes Indian too. That black environmental activist woman that almost ran for the Brazilian presidency this time around was one of them. She started calling herself black once she got deeper into politics and wanted to appeal to the growing population of "I'm black and proud" people of Brazil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPLgbgl4q8E

This was one of the comments under the video. Understanding some of the cultural tones I found it a bit funny. I recall some other black person on that past mixed race website saying you can tell when someone is telling a lie that they have Amerindian blood, because they'll always claim to be part Cherokee. I think this is kind of what this black woman is referencing here.

now back to your subject.
I have a very infamous/ famous "black African " slave great great great grandma . who walked the trail of tears with the Ridge party.
now as far as her identity she was only half
"african black" and was 100 % in her phenotype.
but she never knew her father and her mother was saponi or part tuscarora and went into slavery at the time of the Tuscarora wars.

her mom or grandma was bred... and just because you LOOK like someone doesn't prove that is who you are or ever were.

so her mother Got her into a tribe and because she was black phenotype she had to do it as a slave or threat of being captured and resold. if she was a white mix indian she wouldn't have had t have been a 'slave' .

so she never knew anything about africa or her father or grandfather , she only knew her female ancestors and they were indians.

father only provide a phenotype and sometimes little else.

matter of fact
our slave grandma Dollie ( born in SC )or another one of my many times grandma Ollie is a direct descendant of
Lady cofitachiqui who's female clan were in SC because Cofitachiqui was a large town in SC . and really both could be the same line really.
I just want to remember how that part of the story went.
I have done my mtdna to someday hope to find other clan members with my mtdna.. if it is my direct mtdna match to Lord Pakal who mother should be the same clan as Lady Cofitachiqui. mtdna these should be of the same clan as Lady Cofitachiqui .. so we will find out when science gets the cajones to reveal the truth ( which they probably won't ever ) and admit to everything they refuse to admit.
so everyone watch and see if Lord Pakal comes back with a " surprise mtdna".

which them finding just happen to find a " European mtdna" ancestors of native americans.. in Siberia 24000-48000 years old is the old lie and a new set up of lies and fabrications for their big reveal and " surprises " I'm sure ..

but I am still hunting a female of my cherokee slave grandma's direct line to see who else she matches with .. Now she is my great great great grandma she is not my direct line so I still have to find a female from her line to see what her mtdna looks like and matches with .

BUT my great great grandma was known as an 'african " because of her phenotype and known as a "slave" because of politics of white folks.. and as "a wife" of a chief. and if I remember the story right she only knew herself as what her mother and grandmother was which was an indians. you know they didn't have mirrors everywhere then... so in her mind eyes she was what she saw her mother and grandmother were .

my black indian
" african " / indian slave grandma / wife of a very infamous/famous chief
SHE died in choctaw territory living with the Phillips family and I don't know how the Phillips were related to her or maybe they were related to dead husband's other old family and kids families or his sisters and brothers families. but she died about 1880.

those were just all kind of awful times and that anyone anywhere ever made it to today is a miracle and only because of God's blessing and his protection and his mercy !

CryOfALion · Jan 4, 2015

Self hate stemming from thousands of years of being traded as slaves, being heralded as greatest on the planet just to lose the title, being bred like animals for stature and function, and legislation that has never gone away that seems to vindicate all of this - all the while being taught your own culture by your own oppressors as if you are nothing but a storybook fable everyone but you knows...

That... can do numbers on an entire "race's" mentality and identity. One day, maybe people will realize they do not have to overly-associate themselves with anything but who they are - because they realize they are uniquely great, and human.

Not that the world helps this sickness at all - black people are basically seen as the dung of the earth whether people want to lie and say it through circumlocution, or whether they directly vocalize their hate and disdain (which I actually prefer.) But, the job is to recognize the lies and ignorance and laugh it away as devilish.

There is no reason to try to be something you don't even know you are. I was told by my family that we had "indian" in our family, only to find out - as irony serves - that it isn't native American as suggested, but actual Dravidian Indian (South Asia,) and Andamanese. All that time missed on getting to know who I really was because of a lie...

NannaNae · Jan 4, 2015

CryOfALion said:
Self hate stemming from thousands of years of being traded as slaves, being heralded as greatest on the planet just to lose the title, being bred like animals for stature and function, and legislation that has never gone away that seems to vindicate all of this - all the while being taught your own culture by your own oppressors as if you are nothing but a storybook fable everyone but you knows...

That... can do numbers on an entire "race's" mentality and identity. One day, maybe people will realize they do not have to overly-associate themselves with anything but who they are - because they realize they are uniquely great, and human.

Not that the world helps this sickness at all - black people are basically seen as the dung of the earth whether people want to lie and say it through circumlocution, or whether they directly vocalize their hate and disdain (which I actually prefer.) But, the job is to recognize the lies and ignorance and laugh it away as devilish.

There is no reason to try to be something you don't even know you are. I was told by my family that we had "indian" in our family, only to find out - as irony serves - that it isn't native American as suggested, but actual Dravidian Indian (South Asia,) and Andamanese. All that time missed on getting to know who I really was because of a lie...

yes there was many races that were brought here by euro cultures as slaves .
but every 'race" and thus every male line was here before the last invasion. including all three races ..
so no one knows who was here and what any of those types could have combined to create in all populations that were here . so as conditions changed and as food changed and as male line recombined in tribes after wars and such to create even different % of males lines , then different male lines would become more dominant and thus group phenotypes would change again as a group/ tribe , even if they were there all the time , each tribe had it usual dominant type but those would change in time. ..

NannaNae · Jan 4, 2015

talking about India.. they found my very rare( well a kind of close subclade) MTdna in India in the Tammil which is what the Tamahu were in India and China . Now science can't explain that but I can.. because God is GOOD and he is wise and his love endure forever!

SuperCloud · Jan 5, 2015

Okay, NannaNae, where to begin? Bringing up DNA and phenotype is always like opening up a can of worms.

Let me see if I can order my thoughts and try to articulate them in at least a semi-clear and brief manner. Bearing in mind my understanding of genetics is very limited and very shallow relative to someone else that has studied genetics in depth. But equal to that is some of the misunderstandings we lay people have of genetics, such as the "human genome," which while true in a sense is a bit of a misnomer in another sense. There is only really a genome of life (ergo, humans are genetically related to chimpanzees and even bananas). Furthermore, there are no such things as European genes, African genes, or Indian genes per se.

Secondly, "phenotype" is a word in the life sciences that can be used to mean a few things. But for the purpose of this thread I've been using the word phenotype to mean those ranges of visual appearances we see among people and culturally identify as "white," "black," "mixed," "Indian" and so forth.

Third and most important, I think CryOfALion's post touched on the most culturally important or relative issues in this thread, pertaining to so many Black-American's claiming to have Amerindian ancestry anyways. But lots of whites do so too but out of different motivations perhaps.

So, let me just mention a few things about genetics as I understand it in a post below this, so, not to make this post too long.

SuperCloud · Jan 5, 2015

Okay... genetics.

I think you are misapplying the term "scientism," NannaNae, and I'm not an adherent of scientism. Which is more or less a faith in the ability of science to be the sole source of explaining all things in life.

That is different than using the scientific method and drawing upon all the abundance of knowledge in the various scientific fields to rationally understand the physical phenomenon on earth and throughout the universe as a whole.

Everything is part of the physical world except those things categorized as part of the spiritual world. So, humans are part of the physical world. As such the laws of chemistry and physics which govern the universe govern the operational system of the biological organism we call the human person. This chemistry and physics works at the atomic and molecular level forming things like DNA and how substances and atoms move in and out of the vessels in the body.

The environment effects both an individuals genes and phenotype. Or can anyways. And on a macro scale this would be true of populations and heredity. So, the prevailing hypothesis explaining the different "racial" groups (technically, supposedly, there is only 1 human race) is the so-called "Out of Africa Theory." And environmental changes are said to have played a dramatic role in the phenotypic changes among humans.

But getting to "Indian" genes as so forth. My understanding is that there are no such things as "African," "European," "Jewish," or "Indian" genes and so forth. Rather, there are genetic markers that are found more prevalent among Africans, or more among Amerindians and so forth.

You might think of it as somewhat akin to the HIV/AIDS problem. In Africa HIV is mainly found among heterosexuals but in the USA it is more often found among gay men and men that have sex with other men. Nonetheless, HIV as a virus is neither a "heterosexual virus" nor a "homosexual virus" per se.

But genetic identification--from my understanding--can actually be much more geographically narrowed down to origins. Or think of it as analogous to looking at the United States geographically. That tells one less a guess at racial odds. But narrow it to the Midwest. Then narrow it down to Wisconsin. Yet narrow it further down to the City of Milwaukee. But narrow it even further down to the North Side of Milwaukee. Now, you know statistically there is a very high portion of Black-Americans on the North Side of Milwaukee. So, you can surmise subject A with genetic marker B found usually only on the North Side of Milwaukee, then subject A was probably Black-American. That's an analogy, my analogy, and my understanding of racial and ethnic genetic profiles.

So, in a sense you are correct, NannaNae, if you have been attempting to say a person's genotype only provides us with so much information about that person.

But you are also wrong to totally dismiss what a person's genotype can tell us about that individual and to dismiss genetic science as "scientism."

You're views on phenotypes and parental genetic inheritance seem off too.

Anyways, the only reason I'm like 98% or 99% and not 100% certain my grandmother's mother was not Creek Indian is because at the time, as I recall, not all the "Native Americans" genetic markers were known and recorded. Furthermore, since I'm not very confident in my own grasp of genetics I can't really spot, pick up, or understand flaws in information given. So, I defer to the professionals. But I think I have enough grasp of genetics to be about 98% sure I have no Amerindian ancestry from my father's Black-American side of the family.

The Bible is not a textbook on science. It's a theological book. And there is not really anything the Bible can tell us about genetic inheritance. So, Skaloop would be right about that.

NannaNae · Jan 5, 2015

first let me say there is two versions or explanations of phenotype.. the natural world's/ animal registries which is truly testable and provable.. and the
" scientisms" theories which isn't at all testable or repeatable in any real world settings.

. you might want to learn as much as you can about both of these " theories " before you start talking about really raciest concepts of phenotypes especially out of context of a culture which may or may not have been included with said phenotypes.
now my ggg was
recorded as african and that was not what she was in her head , it was not who she was in her mothers or her grandmother head .

because matriarchal societies know pheno type means nothing ....
and that my grandma next generation was veiw as indians... because their father was a full blood.

white culture in the cherokee insisted that her children be viewed as part bloods and africans ..
which would not have been the case even 100 years earlier when( slave ) ggg grandma mom and grandma's when they were born.

there was one generation or two when everything changed and nothing was ever ' traditional' after that.

so you want to argue about new old ways or the old ways or the old oldest ways .. or the white guys ways and science and governments ways or who's perceptions of race have more right to exsist in your mind ?

I says God and my ancestors and ancient laws long forgotten .. they knows who is really what !
I will let him and them sort it all out.
you think science has a clue.....I think your indian grandma will slap you up side your head...

NannaNae · Jan 5, 2015

said markers are only carried down from your father and mothers father..
and that is not who you are and it isn't about culture/world veiw that you are raised in ..... it is just how you look to others .
it even has little to nothing to do with how you function as a human.
that is all about the direct maternal side and it's adaptions to it's environment.
so child has to be what it's mother is ... no matter what it looks like .
but how did scientism find the genes they wanted to call
native in live populations?
yes
"observation", and low and behold come hook or crook..they found asians markers ..
what a shock..

NannaNae · Jan 5, 2015

CryOfALion said:
Dravidian Indian (South Asia,) and Andamanese. All that time missed on getting to know who I really was because of a lie...

and you of course know that they have declared native americans extinct by such methods of their own ignorance right ?
and so maybe it was Andamese and came here with slavery or maybe not ..even if he was a slave brought here on a pirate ship or something.. how do you know what some native american lady didn't find that little blue fellow cute ? and yes blue fellow line will continue for many generations after him to throw little blue fellows. unless line was really a big blue fellow and before that big white fellows. tell me how you know from anything scientism thinks it can tell you.. that there was also never any native ladies back there ? by most native tribes " a she" is the only one that ever counted....how come I suspect another grandma is going to have a whale of a time on the side of someone head!~
after seeing what science passes off as science ..
I am sure I will never believe or trust another thing any of them of that religion ever says.

CryOfALion · Jan 5, 2015

NannaNae said:
and you of course know that they have declared native americans extinct by such methods of their own ignorance right ?
and so maybe it was Andamese and came here with slavery or maybe not ..even if he was a slave brought here on a pirate ship or something.. how do you know what some native american lady didn't find that little blue fellow cute ? and yes blue fellow line will continue for many generations after him to throw little blue fellows. unless line was really a big blue fellow and before that big white fellows. tell me how you know from anything scientism thinks it can tell you.. that there was also never any native ladies back there ? by most native tribes " a she" is the only one that ever counted....how come I suspect another grandma is going to have a whale of a time on the side of someone head!~
after seeing what science passes off as science ..
I am sure I will never believe or trust another thing any of them of that religion ever says.

NannaNae I know of how "our" people were brought over as slaves, and how "natives" saw our men as majestic because of our hair that defies gravity, and our skin color - asserting we are majesty, and all but begging "our" men to mate with their women.

I would rather not intellectually go down that rabbit hole.

SuperCloud · Jan 5, 2015

Maybe I should have made it more clear, NannaNae, that one can carry non-dominate genes that are not expressed--or in the case of this thread that means a person can have black phenotype but nonetheless have Amerindian ancestry.

A person can have a gene that may not necessarily be "switched on." That's why you can have dominate genes and non-dominate genes, or in the case of a mulatta like Halle Berry you can see in her phenotype that both her "white genes" and "black genes" are switched on. I'd have to go back and look up the exact term for this but it's how you get a pink rose from a red rose and white rose.

And no... your genetic traits are not only inherited from your paternal lines. Half your genes come from your mother. But your genes also go through a recombination process which helps create genetic diversity and helps strengthen you from diseases.

None of this has to do with "scientism." And "phenotype" can be applied to the non-visible characteristics of yourself, such as blood type and carrying certain genetic traits for certain diseases. All of which are mathematically predictable by scientists, at least using probability math with respects to any future offspring.

There are a lot of things genes can't do and can't tell us. But there are things they do do and can tell us. Most of a persons genotype doesn't actually code for anything or much of anything at all--at least not that we know of. But even non-coding aspects of our genes might still act as geographical/ancestral identification markers.

(Genes are not the only geographical "tags" in your body, scientists can tell where you consumed water at or where the origins of that water was from geographically on earth from certain atoms in your body.)

NannaNae · Jan 5, 2015

CryOfALion said:
NannaNae I know of how "our" people were brought over as slaves, and how "natives" saw our men as majestic because of our hair that defies gravity, and our skin color - asserting we are majesty, and all but begging "our" men to mate with their women.

I would rather not intellectually go down that rabbit hole.

no one has ever called blacks extinct.

but they do call native american tribes because of racial ignorance and even more stupid theories about native americans..

you can call me black or Africa if you wish , but not many would call me african or black because of my one drop. some might try I do look a bit "exotic". as a rule though I am usually called a white wannabee,,, now sister passes as full blood by most indians but we look nothing alike.

I believe in 'all my relatives.." and that we all got off of Noah's boat at the same time and walked off of there at the same time in exactly the same way..

as far as who my mtdna is closest related to in the old world.

I am equally at a distance from Finnish, as Sardinians and as far or closely related to North African Fulani and close or far away as to Wodaabi but I am by clan Ani-Wodi and I know my history. I am at equal distatnce from all those
"all my relations "/ cousins including the same distance= matches in the Caribbean Taino who scientism were trying to call 'africans" until last year...
but Scientism refuses to recognize I even exsist because it has an agenda . bering straits is it's agenda ! to wipe whole history of my people from the books and never have to deal with the truth.

and it has declared everything it doesn't want to be the truth as a myth... SO I am a myth. but I am still here and I stilk know enough of about my ancestors to be a thorn in their side from now on.

but I am not a Myth and neither is Lord Pakals mtdna it will prove to not be a Myth either .
he was from my clan called ani-Wodi clan his Grandmother Yohl ig nal.. is the same name as Yollie or OIllie. and might I suggest he and his grandma knew their stories too..

Does that give anyone with a theory the right or do they in anyway have the right to tell me who I am ? or to call me European ,Nigerian , Finnish or Sardinian or Fulani ? they haven't formed a decent question of what race or history is to tell me who I am.

because all those people I just listed have all
European mtdna , on both maternal and paternal linear lines. All are equal distances from each other. as the Sioux call them these are
"all my relatives", and I know who my relatives are .
and I know who my ancestors are and what the social structures were. and I the real history of North America .

I will tell you No skin color has zip to do with anything , and never did .
now how big and tall and how strong probably did have lots to do with that stuff . but that is as old as noah's ark is.
and no one has the right to tell anyone who they are based on skin colors or hair type. because that is only the expression of two male lines and no two males have the right to tell people who they are or aren't .
scientism has no idea who was here and certainly has no right to tell anyone here who they are or who they are not based on anything they might dream up! and certainly not by skin color or hair texture when that is only the expression of one generation of two male y lines . and that doesn't make a race either.

NannaNae · Jan 5, 2015

97% of all people in the world are someplace between asian=JApheth, Black= Ham, and Shem =white and all our ancestors were the 97 % between these three types. to demand that all people with a certain skin color or hair type have the same history is ignorant of history and genetics Cry.

what isn't the same about all people is their culture and and their adaptions to their environment and that really isn't much about most folks dad's at least in the new world...

Gxg (G²) · Feb 5, 2015

SuperCloud said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPLgbgl4q8E
.

Fascinating documentary - as I was just speaking to someone on that very subject as we were examining the culture and history of AmeriIndians...

Kalevalatar · Feb 6, 2015

SuperCloud said:
This was one of the comments under the video. Understanding some of the cultural tones I found it a bit funny. I recall some other black person on that past mixed race website saying you can tell when someone is telling a lie that they have Amerindian blood, because they'll always claim to be part Cherokee. I think this is kind of what this black woman is referencing here.

Claiming to be "part Cherokee" is similar American meme than claiming Highland Scots ancestry, and it's always Highland Scots and kilts, never Lowland, just as it's always "Cherokee".

African Americans, Black Americans, are Americans, US-Americans, first and foremost, and part of the same culture and its memes. They don't claim "Cherokee blood" because of the amount of melanin. They claim to be "part Cherokee" because it's an American thing to do and they are Americans.

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