Biune or TRIune man, your belief and that of your denomination

[cubanito]

Is man of two parts, body and mind? or

is man TRIpart body, mind and something else: soul, spirit whatever wordind suits you

JR

 

[rmwilliamsll]

where does the vocabulary "biune" come from?

googling the term i find:
http://www.questhaven.org/book_way.htm
http://www.abc-coggc.org/_old_web/COGGC/gcpublications/jrad/JRAD 10-2-1.htm

it appears to be a special word created to oppose triune. who is using it? is it particular to a specific cult?

in reformed systematic theology the terms are:
trichotomy vs. DIchotomy
or another slightly different discussion in:
substance dualism vs monism

see:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/anthropology.html

AFAIK Andrew Murray is the only modern trichotomist.

the issue really only comes up in discussions with the Little Church/Watchman Nee/Witness Lee. i personally have never heard the issue at church.

i'd be curious if any one here has extensively discussed the issue somewhere.

but to answer your question, reformed theology says that spirit and soul are synonyms. so man is a two part being: body and soul.
most Christians are substance dualists as well, material/physical and spiritual.

 

[Imblessed]

I really couldn't answer the poll, but I believe that soul/spirit are one and the same. We have a fleshly body and we have a soul/spirit.

What do you mean by 'mind' ?

 

[seekingpurity047]

I really couldn't answer the poll, but I believe that soul/spirit are one and the same. We have a fleshly body and we have a soul/spirit.

What do you mean by 'mind' ?

Hi Imblessed. In philosophy, especially for people like George Berkeley and the Empiricists, soul/spirit are the same as mind. As in, we can't see the mind, and what not. The mind = the soul/spirit. Just to clear it up, at lesat that's what I think the OP is implying.

As for me, I am not 100% sure, but I'm tempted to choose biune.

Randy

 

[Irishcat922]

oops!

 

[Irishcat922]

where does the vocabulary "biune" come from?

googling the term i find:
http://www.questhaven.org/book_way.htm
http://www.abc-coggc.org/_old_web/COGGC/gcpublications/jrad/JRAD%2010-2-1.htm

it appears to be a special word created to oppose triune. who is using it? is it particular to a specific cult?

in reformed systematic theology the terms are:
trichotomy vs. DIchotomy
or another slightly different discussion in:
substance dualism vs monism

see:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/anthropology.html

AFAIK Andrew Murray is the only modern trichotomist.

the issue really only comes up in discussions with the Little Church/Watchman Nee/Witness Lee. i personally have never heard the issue at church.

i'd be curious if any one here has extensively discussed the issue somewhere.

but to answer your question, reformed theology says that spirit and soul are synonyms. so man is a two part being: body and soul.
most Christians are substance dualists as well, material/physical and spiritual.

Rmwilliams is correct. Historically Orthodox Christianity has always maintained man was a dichotomy. Trichotomy has generally been held as heterodox to sound Biblical teaching.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Rmwilliams is correct. Historically Orthodox Christianity has always maintained man was a dichotomy. Trichotomy has generally been held as heterodox to sound Biblical teaching.

thanks. i do not believe that all trichotomists are heretics simply because of that fact. (andrew murray) there is an interesting argument aligning the Trinity to anthropology (man is 3 parts as God is), but it is often a distinction with a purpose. Like Watchman Nee.(the spirit is where God lives in Christians)

However i am more concerned with the fact that there are two interrelated ideas that might be confused.

tri and di-chotomy discuss the way anthropology can divide the nature of man.

dualism and monism discuss the "substance" of the universe and therefore the "stuff" human beings are made of.

the discussions are related, but, imho, we need to be careful how we talk.

 

[cubanito]

I apologize for a poor chpice of terms. I'm polling on dichotomy vs trichotomy of man, and if people know of historic denominational responses. I am aware of some of these historical stands (esp the Platonic/Gnostic, later anabaptist position of an undefiled "divine spark") I am curious as to what others believe themselves, and what they know of their denominational doctrinal stands. I appreciate all comments so far.

JR

 

[Irishcat922]

No prob. Biunity and triunity sounded pretty good, besides we knew what you meant. I am fairly certain most if not all reformed denominations hold to the dichotomy of man. Hodge and Dabney are good to read on anthropology, they helped me clear up my thinking on the issue. I assumed the trichotomy of man, I used to be Charismatic, that is what most believe, I never thought any different until I studied it.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I apologize for a poor chpice of terms. I'm polling on dichotomy vs trichotomy of man, and if people know of historic denominational responses. I am aware of some of these historical stands (esp the Platonic/Gnostic, later anabaptist position of an undefiled "divine spark") I am curious as to what others believe themselves, and what they know of their denominational doctrinal stands. I appreciate all comments so far.

JR

don't worry about it.
i am hypersensitive to subtle changes in vocabulary, they seem to indicate cults sometimes, plus i am hypersensitive to the local church and their trichotomy. it's nothing you did wrong, you just set off my filters against folly.

 

[SoaringEagle]

Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Genesis 1:26-27).

We see that man was made in God's image, according to His likeness. So, what is the make-up of man? or what is the nature of man? What does man consist of?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Watchman Nee a good friend of T.Austin Sparks and from my understanding a chinese Martyr known for his writings, says this in his book The Spiritual Man volume 1 part 1 pages 23-24

((("When God first created man He formed him os dust from the ground, and then breated "the breath of life" into his nostrils. As soon as the breath of life, which became man's spirit, came in contact with man's body, the soul was produced. Hence the soul is the combination of man's body and spirit. The Scriptures call man "a living soul." ... original word "life" in "breath of life" is 'chay' and is in the plural. This may refer to the fact that the inbreathing of God produced a twofold life, soulical and spiritual. When the inbreathing of God entered man's body it became the spirit of man; but when the spirit reacted with the body the soul was produced. This explains the source of our spiritual and soulical lives. We must recognize though, that that this spirit is not God's OWN life, for "the breath of the Almighty gives me life" (Job 33.4). It is not the entrance of the uncreated life of God into man, neither is it that life of God which we receive at regeneration. WHat we receive at new birth is God's own life as typified by the tree of life. But our human spirit, though permanently existing, is void of "eternal life." "For man of dust from the ground" refers to man's body; "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" refers to man's spirit as it came from God; and "man became a living soul" refers to man's soul when the body was quickened by the spirit and brought into being a living and self-conscious man. A complete trinity- the composite of spirit, soul, and body.)))

Adam's whole being consisted of spirit, soul, body.

Breath in hebrew is 'neshamah' and means "spirit" and this same word 'neshamah' is used in Pro.20:27

Pro. 20:27- The spirit (neshamah) of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. KJV

The make-up of man consists of spirit, soul, and body.

This can be understood better when realizing that man was made in the image of God, and there is one God co-existing in three persons. God is Father, Son, and Spirit, and man is spirit, soul, and body.

We as humans are a temple (tabernacle) of God.
The tabernacle in the O.T. consisted of three areas. Outer Court (body), Inner Court (soul), and Holies of Holies (spirit).

Paul confirms this about the make up of man.

1Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The author of Hebrews also says that the spirit and soul are not the same (though at times they can be used synonymously). They are distinct, as they are to function on two different levels.

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Notice that you have soul, spirit, and joints/marrow. Joints and marrow refers to the body. So, just as Joints and marrow are to be distinguished, soul and spirit are to be to.

So man is a trinity as well. So, if this is true, and man is spirit, soul, body, then the spirit of Troy (that's me) is Troy, the soul of Troy is Troy, and the body of Troy is Troy, but there is only one Troy. I operate on three distinct levels. The spiritual realm, the soulical realm, and the bodily realm. And it is the same way with God. God is Father, Son, Spirit, Yet God is One


This is the position of the trichotomy of man

 

[Imblessed]

Heb 4:12 - "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Notice that you have soul, spirit, and joints/marrow. Joints and marrow refers to the body. So, just as Joints and marrow are to be distinguished, soul and spirit are to be to.

Just a quick note here---I would read this this way: Just as "joints and marrow" both refer to
the same thing :"body"--so "soul and spirit" would both refer to the same thing: "inner man"(for lack of better word right now)

 

[SoaringEagle]

it doesn't suprise me that some would read thatway. However,

Heb 4:12 - "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Just as the joints and marrow are to be distinguished, so are the spirit and soul. From what I understand, the immaterial part of man consists of soul and spirit, which function on two different levels. If not, then you must conclude that soulical and spiritual are the same thing. For a more indepth position on this important subject, see: http://christinyou.com/pages/constman.html

 

[rmwilliamsll]

from: http://www.christinyou.net/pages/christatworkinyou.htm

They serve on committees, in leadership positions, and even behind the pulpit, but their faithful, loyal and dedicated "service" is often but a sterile form of "churchianity" that is devoid of the Christ-life that constitutes Christianity.

How can genuine Christians be content with going through the motions of ritualistic religion?
...
Also inherent in His exclamation was the declaration that by His death He was setting in motion the inexorable completion of the full restoration of mankind to the intent for which God had created man.
...
Watchman Nee referred to the Lord Jesus in the Christians as "the resident boss," but He is more than just an authoritative ruler. Jesus is our life. He is the essential basis of who we are - our spiritual identity as a "Christ-one." He desires to be "all in all" of us, and to express His character in our behavior unto His own glory.
...
To properly understand the work of Jesus within the Christian as He functions conjunctively as Lord and Savior, requires a differentiation of spirit and soul, of our spiritual condition and psychological behavior. What a disservice theology has done for centuries by attempting to amalgamate spirit and soul as synonymous terms, even to the extent of regarding their differentiation as heretical.
...
This perfection of our spiritual condition must not, however, obscure the ongoing activity of Christ the Savior in our soul.

lots of Watchman Nee code words.
not to say that there is no value in it, only that the time and energy to sort through the garbage makes the process time consuming and probably mostly wasted.

is it little church? or just someone deeply infected by Watchman Nee? i can't tell, nor do i have the time to determine it, nor really the interest.

it is possible to be orthodox and tripartite, it is possibly possible to really appreciate Watchman Nee and not end up in heresy, yes but the odds appear to be really low. his stand of restorationism, of perfectionism, of spirit is only in true Christians of his type, makes orthodoxy a really hard reach.

 

[SoaringEagle]

Perhaps Watchman Nee was more closer to the extremes of perfectionism. Yet we must, be more readily willing to error on the side of expecting too much victory over sin because of the wisdom of God demonstrated in the finished work of Christ than to error on the side of those who exalt sin over the blood of the covenant and insult the Spirit of Grace. For where sin abounded grace abounded much more. God's grace is abounding and working much more than the sin that previously worked in our lives when living in unbelief. It is in these points where some Calvinist views error exalting the depravity of man, and the power of sin as if it were greater than the work of redemption accomplished through Christ Jesus.

 

[rapturefish]

Is man of two parts, body and mind? or

is man TRIpart body, mind and something else: soul, spirit whatever wordind suits you

JR

A person has a body when alive here, and a mind and a spirit. I don't really like the terms triune or biune, since they seem to me to refer to three yet one, or two yet one, as the Holy Trinity is.

When the body dies, the mind and spirit of a man is outside this world. I guess the whole package of that is a person's soul, but I'm no expert in these semantics.

 

[JM]

Nature of Man article
Nature of Man: Part 2 Counter-Arguments

I just don't know. In the OT we find passages that say love God with all your heart and with all your soul, etc. Are they two different things? Are the seat of emotions different then the soul?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

This appears to be Local Church, i've been through these two links in the past and they are Watchman Neeites.


I'm going to ask the mods to examine this thread. di and tri are not active topics in the reformed churches and it appears to me that the forum is being used to preach a heresy.

the Local Church is a dangerous heresy, their mode of operation is to infiltrate orthodox churches and propagate their restorationist, we are the only true church doctrine while the watchman are asleep on the city walls.

be careful, for there are those wolves who who devour the sheep under the guise of feeding them, but the only people being fed are the Neeites.

 

[Beoga]

Nature of Man article
Nature of Man: Part 2 Counter-Arguments

I just don't know. In the OT we find passages that say love God with all your heart and with all your soul, etc. Are they two different things? Are the seat of emotions different then the soul?

I think with passages like this, the man emphasis is not to teach about the nature of man(tri vs di). Instead, the "three-peat" so to speak is supposed to emphasize the whole of man. If I remember correctly, when something is repeated more than once, there is great emphasis put on what is being said. With the repetion of "heart, soul, and mind," we are told to love God with all that we are and that in no way of our life or who we are should lack this love for God.

Just some [jumbled] thoughts.

 

[JM]

This appears to be Local Church, i've been through these two links in the past and they are Watchman Neeites.


I'm going to ask the mods to examine this thread. di and tri are not active topics in the reformed churches and it appears to me that the forum is being used to preach a heresy.

the Local Church is a dangerous heresy, their mode of operation is to infiltrate orthodox churches and propagate their restorationist, we are the only true church doctrine while the watchman are asleep on the city walls.

be careful, for there are those wolves who who devour the sheep under the guise of feeding them, but the only people being fed are the Neeites.

I hope the mod's will let this thread stand, I hope to learn a little more about the Reformed position on this topic.

j