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Those two ideas are not mutually exclusive. We see a shadow of things to come in the world we live. We see a little Paradise and a little Hell. We have the food chain, where the animals of creation devour each other as monsters. We have our planet, on an irreversible descent into higher levels of entropy, saved only by the life bestowed upon us from above.
What we see in Weise's Hell is the worst of our world, minus it's salvation. We see life destroying life, to steal what morsel that might be scraped from the bones of one who has not yet lost everything. A man who enters there is the only source of life trickled over from a world where blessings abounded. The monsters of Hell torment because they are tormented. It's analogous to saying that they destroy and devour because their own hunger destroys and devours them.
Eternal means that the direction is not reversible.
d. His Description of the Horrors of Hell
They were still somewhere on the surface of the Earth; but no living person or beings of light could be seen. Before them was a plain jammed with hordes of spirits who are the most miserable and angriest beings he has ever seen. Many were engaged in hand-to-hand combat with no weapons - trying in vain to hurt and kill those who didn't agree with them. A lot of verbal abuse could be heard between them as their thoughts could be heard by everyone around them the moment they are thought. Ritchie is horrified as he wonders what living in such a realm would be like - a place where you cannot hide from who you really are. These spirits were locked into destructive thought-patterns, rage and uncontrollable lust. Some were trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. The wailing coming from the hordes of unsatisfied spirits was tremendous. Other spirits were in despair saying things such as, "I always knew!" and "Didn't I warn you!" Ritchie realizes this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either - only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn't abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.
e. His Observations of the Temple of Wisdom
The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's Temple of Wisdom and Heavenly City Experience: They then travel to a completely different realm where some kind of enormous university is located. Spirits dressed as monks busily and happily engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. An enormous library exists here where all the important books of the universe are assembled. Ritchie asks Jesus if this is heaven. These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either.
Torturing demons?
Job was given illness, sores, boils, but not a torturing demon.
And for what purpose is torture done in this way? What does it achieve?
Gods judgement is normally simple, destroy the people who have been warned.
Gone, out of the way. Lets get on with what is important.
Torturing with demons seems to be a fascination with revenge, bringing about pain and suffering to a degree that is disproportionate to the crime.
As humans when someone upsets us, a teacher in school, our boss, a spouse, what is our response? To say a few words or to physically respond and do something?
So emotionally we are totally disproportionate. Jesus teaches us to turn the other cheek, to stand back and let love and the actual situation speak to what is appropriate.
So a life lived as a normal individual lost and never quite getting things together will be rewarded with an eternity with evil demons, torturing you in the worst ways possible for their own devious reasons. Sounds like nothing to do with God, love and righteousness at all.
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?
Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.
My point was a bit different from that, however. I was saying that most NDEs do not produce accounts of the person having travelled to any state in the afterlife, such as heaven or hell or anywhere else like that. At best, they tell of meeting Jesus or some other such figure. But this is not the detailed travelogue-type account of "what hell (or heaven) is like" that makes for book sales.
Overwhelmingly, they report on experiences that their souls (apparently) experienced while still in this realm, such as having heard what the doctors and nurses said while the person supposedly lay dead or what was seen in other places on Earth.
That's a valid point.
near-death .com, Christian Andreason:
h. Who goes to heaven?
In the end ... believe it or not (sigh of relief), everyone gets to come home! Heaven is a place of ultimate LOVE. When we have learned how to become individuals that base our entire existence and consciousness around manifesting LOVE, we then become capable of entering the domain of the higher Realms of Heaven. If we do not practice Love, we can only go so far and we will be made to incarnate somewhere out there in God's super Universe again and again (unlimited times) until we learn.
Christian Andreason, near-death .com:
There is a place called "the Death Shadowed Valley," where some Souls may choose to go to if they feel too afraid, guilty or shameful to approach Heaven or God. This is an in-between place or dimension that separates Souls from this world and the next. ...And as I have discussed before ... being caught in this type of situation is a very difficult process to endure and can cause problems for both the living and the dead. However each of us has the ability to call out to God or to Christ ... and immediately ... we will be taken home to Heaven. Or we (the living) can pray and call out to God to send his Angels to come and take others home. It is important for us to understand that we each send ourselves to the places our Soul believes it most belongs. We do that now here on planet Earth. Those stuck in addiction, lust, bitterness and hate -- these are the ones truly in hell. But the moment we choose Love, we can get ourselves out. God never sends us anywhere we do not wish to stay. We have totally misunderstood the concept of hell on this planet.
To you and I yes........
but to God all things are possible. The word "Forever" in both Hebrew as well as Greek is said to mean something more along the line of........ Until The End of Conditions Last.
Sure. Irreversible going forward.
And no. God is limited by reality. God can't be Satan, for instance.
Those in Hell do not come back. Jesus was born one time.
Reality is something God follows as well. Otherwise God would be insane.
I can hope you'll agree....not an option.
Just because one person was inspired to say everything is possible with God
doesn't mean we can use his comment to mean what he may not have meant.
That account begins around the 2:21:00 mark in this text video. I bolded the part that sounds like a Life Review of a near death experience which seems to be where many, many cannot handle the truth of what they did in life....... and run into the darkness to hide...... which Howard Storm can testify could be a very, very, very, very dangerous thing to do.Rick Joyner, The Final Quest:
I then noticed someone I had known on earth. He had been a faithful believer, but I did not think he had done anything of significance. He was so physically unattractive on earth that it had made him shy. Here he had the same features, but was somehow more handsome than any person I had known on earth. He stepped up to me with an assurance and dignity that I had never seen in him, or anyone, before.
"Heaven is much greater than we could have dreamed while on earth," he began. "This room is but the threshold of realms of glory that are far beyond the ability we had to comprehend. It is also true that the second death is much more terrible than we understood. Neither heaven or hell are like we thought they were. If I had known on earth what I know here I would not have lived the way that I did. You are blessed with a great grace to have come here before you have died." he said while looking at my garments.
I then looked at myself. I still had the old mantle of humility on, with the armor under it. I felt both foul and crude standing before those who were so regal and beautiful. I began to think that I was in serious trouble if I was going to appear before the Lord like this. Like the eagles, my old acquaintance could understand my thoughts, and he replied to them:
"Those who come here wearing that mantle have nothing to fear. That mantle is the highest rank of honor, and it is why they all bowed to you while you passed."
"I did not notice anyone bowing to me," I replied, a bit disconcerted.
"It is not improper," he continued. "Here we show each other the respect that is due. Even the angels serve us here, but only our God and His Christ are worshiped."
I was still ashamed. I had to retrain myself to keep from bowing to these glorious ones, while at the same time wanting to hide myself because I looked so bad. Then I began lamenting the fact that my thoughts here were just as foolish here as they were one earth, and here everyone knew them! I felt both stained and stupid standing before these who were so awesome and pure. Again my old acquaintance responded to these thoughts.
"We have our incorruptible bodies now, and you do not. Our minds are no longer hindered by sin. We are therefore able to comprehend many times what even the greatest earthly mind can fathom, and we will spend eternity growing in our ability to understand. This is so that we can know the Father, and understand the glory of His creation. On earth you cannot even begin to understand what the least of these here know, and we are the least of those here."
"How could you be the least?" I asked with disbelief.
"There is an aristocracy here. The rewards for our earthly lives are the eternal positions that we have here. This great multitude here are those whom the Lord called 'foolish virgins.' We knew the Lord, and trusted in His cross for deliverance from damnation, but we did not really live for Him, but for ourselves. We did not keep our vessels filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit. We have eternal life, but we wasted our lives on earth."
I was really surprised by this, but I also knew that no one could lie in that place.
"The foolish virgins gnashed their teeth in the outer darkness," I protested.
"And that we did. The grief that we experienced when we understood how we had so wasted our lives was beyond any grief possible on earth. The darkness of that grief can only be understood by those who have experienced it. Such darkness is magnified when it is revealed next to the glory of the One we failed. You are standing now among the lowest rank in heaven. There are no greater fools than the ones who know the great salvation of God, but then go on living for themselves. To come here and learn the reality of that folly is a grief beyond what an earthly soul can experience. We are those who suffered this outer darkness because of this greatest of follies."
I was still incredulous. "But you are more glorious and full of more joy and peace than I even imagined, even for those in heaven. I do not feel any remorse in you, and yet I know that here you cannot lie. This does not make sense to me."
Looking me straight in the eyes, he continued, "The Lord also loves us with a love greater than you can yet understand. Before His judgment seat I tasted the greatest darkness of soul and remorse that can be experienced. Though here we do not measure time as you do, it seemed to last for as long as my life on earth had lasted. All of my sins and follies which I had not repented of passed before me, and before all who are here. The grief of this you cannot understand until you have experienced it. I felt that I was in the deepest dungeon of hell, even as I stood before the Lord. He was resolute until my life had been completely reviewed. When I said I was sorry and asked for the mercy of His cross, He wiped away my tears and took away the great darkness. He looked at me with a love that was beyond anything that you can now understand. He gave me this robe. I no longer feel the darkness or bitterness that I knew as I stood before Him, but I remember it. Only here can you remember such things without continuing to feel the pain. A moment in the lowest part of heaven is much greater than a thousand years of the highest life on earth. Now my mourning at my folly has been turned into joy, and I know that I will know joy forever, even if I am in the lowest place in heaven."
I began to think again of the treasures of salvation. Somehow I knew that all that this man had told me was revealed by those treasures. Every step I had taken up the mountain, or into it, had revealed that His ways are both more fearful and more wonderful than I had known before.
Looking at me intently, my former acquaintance continued. "You are not here to understand, but to experience. The next level of rank here is many times greater than what we have. Each level after is that much greater than the previous one. It is not just that each level has an even more glorious spiritual body, but that each level is closer to the throne where all of the glory comes from. Even so, I no longer feel the grief of my failure. I really deserve nothing. I am here by grace alone, and I am so thankful for what I have. He is so worthy to be loved. I could be doing many wondrous things now in the different realms of heaven, but I would rather stay here and just behold the glory, even if I am on the outer fringes."
Then, with a distant look in his eyes, he added, "Everyone in heaven is now in this room to watch His great mystery unfold, and to watch those of you who will fight the last battle." "Can you see Him from here?" I asked. "I see His glory far away, but I cannot see Him."
"I can see many times better than you can," he answered. "And yes, I can see Him, and all that He is doing, even from here. I can also hear Him. I can also behold the earth. He gave us all that power. We are the great cloud of witnesses who are beholding you."
He departed back into the ranks and I began walking again, trying to understand all that he had said to me. As I looked over the great host that he had said were the foolish virgins, the ones who had spiritually slept away their life on earth, I knew that if any one of them appeared on earth now that they would be worshiped as gods, and yet they were the very least of those who were here!
I then began to think of all of the time that I had wasted in my life. It was such an overwhelming thought that I stopped. Then parts of my life began to pass before me. I began to experience a terrible grief over this one sin. I too had been one of the greatest of fools! I may have kept more oil in my lamp than others, but now I knew how foolish I had been to measure what was required of me by how others were doing. I, too, was one of the foolish virgins!
I am going to quote you the story of the shy Christian who made it into the outer darkness of heaven.... the lowest level of heaven. I thought that this was brilliantly written.
That account begins around the 2:21:00 mark in this text video. I bolded the part that sounds like a Life Review of a near death experience which seems to be where many, many cannot handle the truth of what they did in life....... and run into the darkness to hide...... which Howard Storm can testify could be a very, very, very, very dangerous thing to do.
I know someone who died in an ambulance and was resuscitated. That person is simply a good person, a Christian but not particularly observant who lived an ordinary life, That person awoke talking about being in the "Light" He said it was hard to describe because all words we know describe this world. He said the Light was perfect peace, perfect love, perfect joy without any sensations we have in this world, in these bodies. He said there wasn't any Time, it was eternal without being confined by eternity. He "died" young enough that he hadn't ever given much thought to the afterlife or heaven so his experience was not colored by his religion or his expectations. He had never heard of NDE, wasn't interested so the experience was quite a revelation to him. He said he was in the presence of God.
My answer to Rick Joyner is scripture.
The battle against the hords of the enemy is short and quick.
Rev 19:19-21
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Now I can read this in 1 minute and know enough about demons and their place. It is not of God to put such fascination in the defeated enemies of Christ, rather we should focus on the victory and the life He has brought us.
One thing that I can say for certain is that what Pastor Rick Joyner wrote about our Pride..... setting us up to be vulnerable to Strong Delusions....... is very, very, very applicable to the last decades of my life.
It is not merely a matter of quoting scripture that is important.... but a true preacher needs to be able to explain scripture to us in a way that assists to come to genuine repentance for our sins and errors!
Romans 10
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
The biggest delusion that has come on our society is sexual immorality, in terms of pornography, adultery, sexual affairs and having multiple partners. Some young people I know talked about threesomes as if this was normal behaviour.
The struggle and difficulty of survival has become the difficulty of finding meaning and developing meaningful relationships with others. Our society has become dominated by hedonistic drives at every level. The problem is this leads to destroying peoples lives and focus and real loneliness and isolation.
Sadly some believers do not know what connecting with one individual is, and would jump at the opportunity, let alone know how to deal with boundaries and appropriate behaviour. Our calling is
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:3-5
To answer the LGBTQ challenge until we can respond appropriately to intimacy and sexuality what have we got as a gospel with power?
What about sexually diverse people?
If this world was to ever find out just a small amount of what sexually diverse (gay) people are here to do on this planet, there would never be one single wisecrack or hurtful remark made ever again. Instead there would be great respect! People who speak disrespectful things about people of this orientation ... enact judgment, and do so from a place of unenlightenment, insecurity, ego and socially induced prejudice. Some may use mistranslated scriptures taught to them, not by the Holy Spirit ... but by fear-filled human beings. Many will choose to sustain a Divinely unsupported satanic hate-based rage against these children of God, rather than using Love to bring understanding and healing between both peoples. Christ said, THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT IS THAT WE ARE TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER! When people sling condemnation, judgment and bitterness at others, they are not practicing the great commandment. They are allowing their Souls to fall into darkness.
Good points......
God's many plans for the Gay community???????
Do you agree that God has plans for the Gay community?
- *
Yes, God owns this studio, we are the actors playing out our role!
13 vote(s)
24.1%
No, God would never compromise one millionth of an inch with sin!!!!
18 vote(s)
33.3%- *
Yes, deep down we all love God and He has good planned for all of us.
17 vote(s)
31.5%
I have really never considered this idea before???
14 vote(s)
25.9%
I am pretty sure it is over five years since I read the NDE of Mr. Christian Andreason. His NDE account has had a major impact on my life.
As a former follower of Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong and his dad Mr. Herbert Armstong I must admit that these statements put me into some serious cognitive dissonance at first!!!!??
.near-death.com/andreason.html#a11
Five or six years later on and finally I feel confident enough to go into specifics as to what I strongly suspect are a few of the actual plans that the God of Abraham, the Creator of heaven and earth has in mind for the Gay community!!!!
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