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Bill Gates: I don't pay enough tax!
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<blockquote data-quote="ScottishJohn" data-source="post: 59931690" data-attributes="member: 99692"><p>Right - I am taking some time back from work because I am hanging around waiting for a builder to arrive to do something to our new church building <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> (which is cheap to run, and beatiful, and incredibly practical!! )<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> I knew this was going to bug me if I didn't get a response out before I went away!</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't really know this lady very well, I have met her once, and in any case it wouldn't be right for me to discuss her in any more detail - there is anonymity you will never know who she is, but there is also her dignity to consider. </p><p></p><p>In general however, addicts are very very difficult people to be around. They lie, steal and manipulate - it is the nature of the mental state addiction creates - and this is as true for more socially normal addictions, such as alcohol and eating disorders, as it is for hard drug use and other more 'extreme' addictions. It is really normal after years and years of trying again and again and again for families to say that enough is enough. There is always a deep desire in those who love and care for addicts to stop them from hurting themselves, to do something or say something that will help break the cycle - but the reality is that the awakening and change of mind can only evercome from within the addict. In my experience thathas to go hand in hand with some kind of assistance for them to deal with whatever it is that they are trying to block out, whether that is their circumstances, traumatic events, self image, whatever. And again it always takes the addict reaching the point where something clicks inside of them and they are ready to deal with it. However it doesn't always work first time, or second time or however many times. And keeping on the wagon is a constant battle and often - unless there is significant change in the context in which they exist - too difficult.</p><p></p><p>The roots do indeed lie in everything that has brought her to this point - her upbringing, her choices, the society in which she lives, things that have been hard but fair, things which have been utterly unjust. And I'm not sure if you grasp how people like her are treated. We have a society which has no problem in treating people very differently based on their education, their social background and their ability to communicate. </p><p></p><p>And example of this from my own life - I can only claim to be middle class, I grew up in a middle class area, my father is a minister and mother is a head teacher, although both were the first generation in their families to go to university. I went to a good school, went to university. I grew up in a church and learnt the rules of social interaction from an early age - having to communicate with older people, having certain expectations placed on me in terms of my behaviour and example. So generally I find it easy dealing with authorities and I fit in a box they understand and respect. </p><p></p><p>However as a student I lived in a pretty ropey area within the town where I studied. I was burgled several times and I had dealers living next door. The last time I was burgled I reported it to the police and they came round, looked round the flat - and it was a fairly serious burglary - the flat had been emptied even furniture had been taken. And because they knew nothing about me, because I had hardly opened my mouth, because of where I lived, their opening gambit was to accuse me of having set the burglary up for insurance purposes. Instead of helping me, instead of looking round the flat, instead of the normal stuff like statements and so on, they went straight to suspecting me, and to treating me like the criminal. Now I was able to set them straight fairly quickly. I was able to contain my anger and speak calmly. They didn't apologise and they didn't think I was worth helping much. But that was one small incident which really showed me how much of a difference class makes to how your are treated. </p><p></p><p>Now imagine that from the day you are born you are treated like that, and you see your parents treated like that. It totally reforms your perception of the world in which you live. These people live in an entirely different world with totally different rules. And it is so easy for us to be utterly simplistic and say well it is all a case of x y and z and if these poor fools just behaved like we do, if they worked and thought and acted as we do, then life would be so much easier for them and everyone else. But for us to say and think that is to ignore our own privilege, and the injustice which is a big issue in their lives. </p><p></p><p>One of the pieces of work the church in scotland has undertaken is called the Povery Truth Commission. And amongst other things it is about reclaiming dignity for people affected by all of the many forms of poverty and injustice. Getting alongside people and helping them to take their experiences and testify directly to those in the highest echelons of government and society. Helping them overcome the communication and class barriers. </p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.povertytruthcommission.org/" target="_blank">Poverty Truth Commission</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right - theres an awful lot in here. I think I want to say that some of your views of scotland, and her psyche are not just or borne out in fact. For example attitudes to entrepreneurship - </p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/07/06091431/7" target="_blank">Household Survey of Entrepreneurship in Scotland 2005</a></p><p></p><p>Scotland has for its size always produced more big hitters than we had any right to expect. We have exported capable and efficient people to all corners of the world. Whatever we make of the discussion on colonialism, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, a totally disproportionate amount of the colonial civil service was manned by scots. What you are promoting is one stereotype. There is another scottish stereotype - the canny scot - mean with money, calculating, amassing wealth. The two do not sit together. As with all stereotypes there is some basis for them, but they fail to take in the whole picture. </p><p></p><p>I've not heard about Thatchers unpopularity being about her sex, that is a new one on me, although I can't say that I have done any research to disprove it. However casting scottish society as male and heirarchical is not entirely accurate and could only be done by someone who has little experience of scotland and has never had or met a glasgow granny <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> My great grandmother lived in glasgow all her life. She was PA to the director of a shipping line, and in fact ran the shipping line at a profit during the war when her boss volunteered to fight, despite having a reserved profession (i assume). He trusted her to run it, and he was right to trust her. She brought up my gran and great auntie on her own as her husband did not return after WWI. She was a formidable woman, and there were and are plenty like her in glasgow. We have our matriarchs too. </p><p></p><p>Its not really relevant, but as a point of interest Scotlands ancient royal family had a matriarchal succession, the line passed through the women.</p><p></p><p>Scotlands attitude to Thatcher is more justified than you allow for, and motivated by more reasonable feelings and experiences than those you put forward. In many ways she attacked and destroyed crucial parts of scottish society, and they have yet to recover. That is not to say that they were perfect or needed no reform. </p><p></p><p>The whole thing is just more nuanced than the picture you are presenting. I think it would be interesting if you ever got a chance to spend some time here in Glasgow. Meet some of the people i work with, and see first hand what I'm talking about. Prosperity and poverty sit and have always sat side by side in glasgow. Crossing a road can often mean property dropping from values measured in hundreds of thousands of pounds to values measured in tens of thousands. Even within the areas of greater deprivation there is a huge range of different people backgrounds and attitudes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ScottishJohn, post: 59931690, member: 99692"] Right - I am taking some time back from work because I am hanging around waiting for a builder to arrive to do something to our new church building ;) (which is cheap to run, and beatiful, and incredibly practical!! ):) :) I knew this was going to bug me if I didn't get a response out before I went away! I don't really know this lady very well, I have met her once, and in any case it wouldn't be right for me to discuss her in any more detail - there is anonymity you will never know who she is, but there is also her dignity to consider. In general however, addicts are very very difficult people to be around. They lie, steal and manipulate - it is the nature of the mental state addiction creates - and this is as true for more socially normal addictions, such as alcohol and eating disorders, as it is for hard drug use and other more 'extreme' addictions. It is really normal after years and years of trying again and again and again for families to say that enough is enough. There is always a deep desire in those who love and care for addicts to stop them from hurting themselves, to do something or say something that will help break the cycle - but the reality is that the awakening and change of mind can only evercome from within the addict. In my experience thathas to go hand in hand with some kind of assistance for them to deal with whatever it is that they are trying to block out, whether that is their circumstances, traumatic events, self image, whatever. And again it always takes the addict reaching the point where something clicks inside of them and they are ready to deal with it. However it doesn't always work first time, or second time or however many times. And keeping on the wagon is a constant battle and often - unless there is significant change in the context in which they exist - too difficult. The roots do indeed lie in everything that has brought her to this point - her upbringing, her choices, the society in which she lives, things that have been hard but fair, things which have been utterly unjust. And I'm not sure if you grasp how people like her are treated. We have a society which has no problem in treating people very differently based on their education, their social background and their ability to communicate. And example of this from my own life - I can only claim to be middle class, I grew up in a middle class area, my father is a minister and mother is a head teacher, although both were the first generation in their families to go to university. I went to a good school, went to university. I grew up in a church and learnt the rules of social interaction from an early age - having to communicate with older people, having certain expectations placed on me in terms of my behaviour and example. So generally I find it easy dealing with authorities and I fit in a box they understand and respect. However as a student I lived in a pretty ropey area within the town where I studied. I was burgled several times and I had dealers living next door. The last time I was burgled I reported it to the police and they came round, looked round the flat - and it was a fairly serious burglary - the flat had been emptied even furniture had been taken. And because they knew nothing about me, because I had hardly opened my mouth, because of where I lived, their opening gambit was to accuse me of having set the burglary up for insurance purposes. Instead of helping me, instead of looking round the flat, instead of the normal stuff like statements and so on, they went straight to suspecting me, and to treating me like the criminal. Now I was able to set them straight fairly quickly. I was able to contain my anger and speak calmly. They didn't apologise and they didn't think I was worth helping much. But that was one small incident which really showed me how much of a difference class makes to how your are treated. Now imagine that from the day you are born you are treated like that, and you see your parents treated like that. It totally reforms your perception of the world in which you live. These people live in an entirely different world with totally different rules. And it is so easy for us to be utterly simplistic and say well it is all a case of x y and z and if these poor fools just behaved like we do, if they worked and thought and acted as we do, then life would be so much easier for them and everyone else. But for us to say and think that is to ignore our own privilege, and the injustice which is a big issue in their lives. One of the pieces of work the church in scotland has undertaken is called the Povery Truth Commission. And amongst other things it is about reclaiming dignity for people affected by all of the many forms of poverty and injustice. Getting alongside people and helping them to take their experiences and testify directly to those in the highest echelons of government and society. Helping them overcome the communication and class barriers. [url=http://www.povertytruthcommission.org/]Poverty Truth Commission[/url] Right - theres an awful lot in here. I think I want to say that some of your views of scotland, and her psyche are not just or borne out in fact. For example attitudes to entrepreneurship - [url=http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/07/06091431/7]Household Survey of Entrepreneurship in Scotland 2005[/url] Scotland has for its size always produced more big hitters than we had any right to expect. We have exported capable and efficient people to all corners of the world. Whatever we make of the discussion on colonialism, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, a totally disproportionate amount of the colonial civil service was manned by scots. What you are promoting is one stereotype. There is another scottish stereotype - the canny scot - mean with money, calculating, amassing wealth. The two do not sit together. As with all stereotypes there is some basis for them, but they fail to take in the whole picture. I've not heard about Thatchers unpopularity being about her sex, that is a new one on me, although I can't say that I have done any research to disprove it. However casting scottish society as male and heirarchical is not entirely accurate and could only be done by someone who has little experience of scotland and has never had or met a glasgow granny :) My great grandmother lived in glasgow all her life. She was PA to the director of a shipping line, and in fact ran the shipping line at a profit during the war when her boss volunteered to fight, despite having a reserved profession (i assume). He trusted her to run it, and he was right to trust her. She brought up my gran and great auntie on her own as her husband did not return after WWI. She was a formidable woman, and there were and are plenty like her in glasgow. We have our matriarchs too. Its not really relevant, but as a point of interest Scotlands ancient royal family had a matriarchal succession, the line passed through the women. Scotlands attitude to Thatcher is more justified than you allow for, and motivated by more reasonable feelings and experiences than those you put forward. In many ways she attacked and destroyed crucial parts of scottish society, and they have yet to recover. That is not to say that they were perfect or needed no reform. The whole thing is just more nuanced than the picture you are presenting. I think it would be interesting if you ever got a chance to spend some time here in Glasgow. Meet some of the people i work with, and see first hand what I'm talking about. Prosperity and poverty sit and have always sat side by side in glasgow. Crossing a road can often mean property dropping from values measured in hundreds of thousands of pounds to values measured in tens of thousands. Even within the areas of greater deprivation there is a huge range of different people backgrounds and attitudes. [/QUOTE]
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