Big Time Question

adamyounge · Aug 24, 2004

Hey, everybody.

This is my first post and i can't think of a better away to start of than to ask a question thats been killing me for a long time. This question can really only be answered with one of two answers. no grey area. The question has to do with God. It is: Where did God come from. Now, don't disregard me just yet. As peposterous as the question seems, there is, as i mentioned earlier, only 2 possibilities. Either God is infinite in age and has been around forever, or God popped up at some time. Now, both answers have their problems and that is where my mind goes numb thinking about it.

To start, lets assume the latter option is true. God popped up at some time. Creationists believed that it is impossible for matter and energy to just appear from nowhere, so the question then is, how could an energy so infinite as God appear from nowhere. This obviously means that God came from or was placed there by something else. Would that not make a higher entity than God?

Now lets assume that the other option is true. God is infinite. This one really bothers me because the idea of an infinite God is just as unlikely as an infinite universe. If God has been around forever, then does this not mean it took an eternity for him to actually get around to creating the earth and the heavens. Let me ask it this way: Creationists believe the world to be about 6000 years in age. It is impossible to subtract from infinity. infinity minus anything is still infinity. so; infinity(the age of God) - 6000(the age of earth and heaven)=infinity(the amount of time passed before the creation of earth).

Now, barring a third option on the origin of God, as far as I can reason, this proves the existance of an almighty God impossible. Now, granted, these same ideas can be used against evolution, but i am neither a creationist, or a evolutionist. i believe in something else that has not been explored or even fathomed by man. If anyone has any questions or comments or answers regarding this idea, or my question please post. I would like to hear your opinions.

SBfaithful · Aug 24, 2004

You can not prove the existence of G-d scientifically.

This probably belongs in general apolegetics.

Good question , though.

Logic · Aug 24, 2004

Infinity is beyond human comprehension. Time, it would seem to me, must be infinite, so why couldn't a God be infinite? I don't think many theologians believe that God suddenly popped into existence.

There are so many unanswerable questions that I can think of, it drives me mad when I start thinking about stuff like this. Time/singularity/multiverse/god/the matrix.

Mistermystery · Aug 24, 2004

Welcome to the boards. Allthough it's always good to ask questions, this is a post that belongs to the appolog. forii.

Prometheus_ash · Aug 24, 2004

Well, a mod might come along and move it over for us, if not, I would repost it over there if you want a better answer. Most of the peeps in GA seems to be to fall in the catagory of philosopher types (with many exceptions) and like those mind teasers that you can't quiet wrap you head around, while those that mainly post in C vs. E tend to be more concerned with tangable and practical issues of the here arnd now (again, with many exceptions). MOre than a few migrate between the two, depending on their mood.

That said, I believe that the common belief concerning god is that he (or she, it whatever) is infinite. That tends to be a fairly common descriptor, along with all-powerfull and all knwoing. There is nothing she can't do, can't know, cant envision, ect. God is the essense of what mankind cannot be, which is limitless.

Your question touches on an argument called the first cause. This argument, essential states that everything as a first cause, and that if you followed the chain all the way back you would get to god, as the first cause. The problem withthis, is that if God does not have a cause (a god of the god perhaps?) then it begs the question about why the universe could not have spotantaniously come it to being.

There is a little known heretical therom that a catholic priest came up with to try and work out this problem, havign to do with god evolving (changing) as time progressed. Essentially it ascribed god as a changing creature, with some limitations, set up by his creation. It made an interaction between God and the faith of its followers. Course, he may also have been trying to solve other problems, and regardless, aside of the uniqueness of his argument, I dont think they were terribly effective.

It is late and I am tired, and have had enough rambling for one night. Goodnight.

adamyounge · Aug 25, 2004

SBfaithful said:
You can not prove the existence of G-d scientifically.

This probably belongs in general apolegetics.

Good question , though.

i can understand why you say that God cannot be explained by science. But i also believe this arguement can be turned around. Can science be explained by a God(sounds weird, i know)? As improbable as the idea of an infinite universe is, an infinite god must be equally improbable. I am one of those people who cannot follow an idea based on information the is unproven beyond a shodow of a doubt, which is why I am neither a creationist or an evolutionist as of yet. So far all theories that have been presented to me seem to be flawed and full of holes.
For the last long while, i have been trying to create my own theory based on what i believe to be the most probable ideas of the universe. For instance; I believe the universe is infinite, both in time and space. I believe this because, to me, it is more probable than the universe having a sudden beginning and an end (Which begs the common question, "whats after/outside of that?").
While my theory is still in progress and has holes that i am still working on mending, I would still like to take some time and write what i have down for all of you to see. Maybe sometime i will do that, but right now I have neither the time nor the confidence in it to do so.
Because of my own belief in following only infallible, 100% proven facts, I may never be able to believe my own theory, but it will at least give me an idea of what, to me, are the most PROBABLE theories.
Thanks to promethius_ash, mistermystery, logic, and SBFaithful for comments, and sorry for posting in the wrong spot. Once again, I'm new. Keep looking for me, i'll be posting often.

AV1611VET · Jul 29, 2014

SBfaithful said:
You can not prove the existence of G-d scientifically.

I agree.

lesliedellow · Jul 29, 2014

adamyounge said:
i can understand why you say that God cannot be explained by science. But i also believe this arguement can be turned around. Can science be explained by a God(sounds weird, i know)? As improbable as the idea of an infinite universe is, an infinite god must be equally improbable. I am one of those people who cannot follow an idea based on information the is unproven beyond a shodow of a doubt, which is why I am neither a creationist or an evolutionist as of yet. So far all theories that have been presented to me seem to be flawed and full of holes.

If you want everything to be perfectly obvious to your common sense, you had better go and find a nice Newtonian universe you can live in.

EternalDragon · Jul 29, 2014

From what one can gather from the scriptures God is a spiritual being of light.
If viewed by a human being it would cause death. Just viewing the back parts
causes your face to glow for days.

God also is not subject to time as we know it. God is outside of time. Not being
subject to time would make one infinite. Except in the case of where God became
a human being but still existed as God outside of time.

That is the best we can figure out. God's word says God is the Alpha and Omega.
That God had no beginning and has no end.

lasthero · Jul 29, 2014

If viewed by a human being it would cause death.

Why? Didn't Adam and Eve look at God in the Garden? They seemed fine.

Just viewing the back parts
causes your face to glow for days.

Why?

selfinflikted · Jul 29, 2014

Short answer: God popped into existence just a few thousand years ago. In the minds of men.

EternalDragon · Jul 29, 2014

lasthero said:
Why? Didn't Adam and Eve look at God in the Garden? They seemed fine.

Why?

Actually if you read Genesis it says they heard the voice of God
walking in the garden.

The bible does not say why Moses' face glowed other than that
he viewed a small part of God.

AV1611VET · Jul 29, 2014

EternalDragon said:
From what one can gather from the scriptures God is a spiritual being of light.

Some -- as do I -- call that Shekinah light or Shekinah glory.

lasthero · Jul 29, 2014

Actually if you read Genesis it says they heard the voice of God
walking in the garden.

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

Kind of seems like he was there with them when this happened.

Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Him, too.

And the LORD appeared to him [Isaac] the same night and said, “I am the God of Abraham your father; fear not, for I am with you and will bless you and multiply your descendants for my servant Abraham’s sake.”

Unless you have some special definition of the word 'appear' that I'm not aware of.

Then Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tent of meeting, and fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.

Lot of appearing.

9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

I could go on like this for a while, if you want.

BL2KTN · Jul 29, 2014

This thread was bumped by AV from ten years ago. Not sure the OP is going to respond after a decade...

selfinflikted · Jul 29, 2014

Ugh. I didn't realize.

STOP IT, AV.

ChetSinger · Jul 29, 2014

adamyounge said:
Now lets assume that the other option is true. God is infinite. This one really bothers me because the idea of an infinite God is just as unlikely as an infinite universe. If God has been around forever, then does this not mean it took an eternity for him to actually get around to creating the earth and the heavens. Let me ask it this way: Creationists believe the world to be about 6000 years in age. It is impossible to subtract from infinity. infinity minus anything is still infinity. so; infinity(the age of God) - 6000(the age of earth and heaven)=infinity(the amount of time passed before the creation of earth).

Hello. I'll suggest that neither secular scientists nor Christians theologians have difficulty with the concept of an infinite past. So I don't think you need to, either.

Christian theologians obviously accept an infinite past existence. But prior to the development of Big Bang theory (developed by a Catholic priest, btw), scientists were happy to accept an infinite steady-state universe. Some accept variants of it even today, such as those who hold to the cyclical bang-crunch theories.

What did God do before this creation? Who knows? But we know this won't be the last one, so why did it have to be the first?

And, does the concept of "time" even exist in God's plane?

Gracchus · Jul 29, 2014

SBfaithful said:
You can not prove the existence of G-d scientifically. This probably belongs in general apolegetics.

Note that the General Apologetics Forum disappeared years ago when Christian Forums came under new management. There was some short lived speculation as to the reasons before the mods clamped down.

selfinflikted said:
Short answer: God popped into existence just a few thousand years ago. In the minds of men.

Bingo! We have a winner, folks!

BlueLightningTN said:
This thread was bumped by AV from ten years ago. Not sure the OP is going to respond after a decade...

AV1611Vet is the champion necromancer. He wasn't even a member of the forum when this thread died.

EternalDragon · Jul 29, 2014

lasthero said:
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

Kind of seems like he was there with them when this happened.

Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, To your descendants I will give this land. And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Him, too.

And the LORD appeared to him [Isaac] the same night and said, I am the God of Abraham your father; fear not, for I am with you and will bless you and multiply your descendants for my servant Abrahams sake.

Unless you have some special definition of the word 'appear' that I'm not aware of.

Then Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tent of meeting, and fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.

Lot of appearing.

9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

I could go on like this for a while, if you want.

If you can easily paste verses here why don't you read the one in question. It is quite different than the ones you posted. Obviously in those passages no one saw the full glory of God.

Exodus 33:17 And the Lord said to Moses, This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name. 18 Moses said, Please show me your glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name The Lord. And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But, he said, you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live. 21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.

USincognito · Jul 29, 2014

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