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Big Bang vs Genesis 1

JohnClay

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.
 
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Jonaitis

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.


I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.


So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.

I believe the creation account as true, historical fact.
 
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Sketcher

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.


I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.


So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.
I'm open-minded to various interpretations of Genesis. Whether Genesis 1 is a 100% literal, historic account or poetry however, it is relevant. The history in the Bible is there for a reason, and so is the poetry. It is all there to instruct us about God, our relation to him, and ourselves.
 
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Anguspure

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.


I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.


So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.
Well before Big Bang theory, about 800 years ago a Jewish sage by the name of Nahmonides calculated the age of the universe (from within the system) to be around 14 billion years old, simply from a study of Genesis.
The Age of the Universe: One Reality Viewed from Two Different Perspectives
"Is it possible that the six days of Genesis are also the 14 billion years of cosmology, even as the six days of Genesis are 24 hours each and the 14 billion of years embrace all our cosmic history without bending either the words of the Torah or the discoveries in science?

We must keep in mind that the major commentators on the words of the Torah, Rashi (ca. 1090) and Nahmonides (ca. 1250), stated explicitly that the six days of Genesis are 24 hours each (Rashi commentary on Talmud Hagigah 12A; Nahmonides commentary on Gen. 1:3). Therefore, an explanation of saying that the days of Genesis One were actually long periods of time could be construed as bending the Bible to match the science. They may have made these comments since the sun is not mentioned in the Bible until fourth day of Genesis.

The key to the resolution of this seeming conflict is the change in perspective of viewing time. Recall that in Psalm 90:4, we read: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night.” In this one verse we read about three perspectives of time: 1000 years, a day and a watch in the night. In our universe, perspective is everything when determining the apparent passage of time.

Nahmonides insightful viewpoint on the days of Genesis is so direct that it is hard to believe that we have missed it so often."
 
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Pavel Mosko

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.


I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.


So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.

These things are often interpreted as being at odds, but they don't have to be. I'm a fan of Apologist Hugh Ross who is an Astrophysicist by trade and he sees the Big Bang implied in various verses of the Bible.

 
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miamited

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Hi john,

If I may help...

You inferred a question:
I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.

In the beginning is a statement proclaiming what God did in the beginning of creating this realm of existence in which man was going to live. The word 'heavens' means all the stars and galaxies and asteroids and other created objects that we see with our eyes and our telescopes. The phrase 'in the beginning' is not speaking of just that first moment that God stepped into this expanse and created the first thing (the earth), but speaks of the entire work of God in creating this entire realm as the 'beginning' of this realm of existence. The entire work of God accounted for in the six days of creating this realm, is 'the beginning'.

You might ask someone, "how was the water of this river tamed?" The answer might be, "Well, in the beginning we built that dam you see upstream." Then the person might further define the work of building the dam. He might say, "First we built a concrete plant up on that bluff above where the dam sits now because we knew we were going to need millions of tons of concrete and hauling it from the town 30 miles away would have cost a fortune and likely ruined most of the roads. Then we laid a foundation of concrete with rebar that was hammered hundreds of feet into the bedrock of the river bed. Then we poured tons of rebar reinforced concrete up about 20 feet. Then we created the sluices from which the stored water behind the dam could be released, as needed, into the river bed beneath the dam. Then we continued to pour tons and tons of reinforced concrete. In places near the bottom of the dam the concrete is more than 50 feet thick."

So, hopefully this might show how the phrase "in the beginning" shouldn't confuse one into thinking that it must have referred to only the moment in which God said, "Let there be light."

You then wrote:
It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

I disagree with that premise. The '3rd generation star' didn't exist either, until the fourth day. As I understand the Scriptures, the earth was created as the only object in all of the bizzillions of square miles of dark empty space. It sat alone, rotating on its axis. For each rotation of its axis, just as it is accounted today, a day passed. Then on the fourth day, the solar system that we now see as a part of our overall planetary system was created around the earth. The sun was put in its place and on the fourth day the earth began to track around the sun. Previous to that, the earth likely just sat in empty space spinning on its axis all by itself. Once all of the planetary bodies, and the sun, were created around the earth, all of the trajectories of planets tracking around the sun began.

Finally you wrote:
So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.

You will, of course, find some in agreement with that understanding, but just to be clear, it doesn't have to be that way. The Genesis account can all be literally true in both its explanation of time and process. I happen to believe that we live on a planet that is a part of a solar system embedded in an amount of space that is just completely unfathomable to the human mind, that some 6,000 years ago didn't exist. Not one single molecule or atom that makes up all that is, existed before God said, "Let there be light", some 6,000 years ago.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Halbhh

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.


I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.


So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.
Verse 1 may have included about 9 billion years of time, before the moment in verse 2. Or...no time.

Or a kind of 'no-time'.

After all, He's God.

Right?

The light on day 1 seems very likely our own star, the sun, getting going -- as fits that being a day with a morning and and evening, the earth rotating, and cloudy.

Cloudy.

The point of the words about the fourth day, the message, just like other days: this is a wonderful home for us!

Genesis 1:18 to preside over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

We could live under a blank sky. He could have made anything.

Instead of that, we have wonder and awe, when we see what He had made for us!

Awe! And wonder.

I understand how stars work, how the cosmos is...

And I'm blown away in awe.
 
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JohnClay

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JohnClay

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@Halbhh:
@Anguspure:
@Pavel Mosko:

About day-age theories:

In Genesis 1, the Earth existed before light itself but in the Big Bang light was basically there right from the start and the Earth formed billions of years later. It says the Sun, Moon and stars were created after plants on day 3. It says there was light before there were sources of light (the Sun, Moon and stars). It also says there were flying creatures (day 5) before all of the land creatures (day 6). The day-age theory involves the sequence in Genesis 1 being the same, just stretched out over time.

Another somewhat popular theory is the Gap Theory which I think is very problematic.
 
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Anguspure

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@Halbhh:
@Anguspure:
@Pavel Mosko:

About day-age theories:

In Genesis 1, the Earth existed before light itself but in the Big Bang light was basically there right from the start and the Earth formed billions of years later. It says the Sun, Moon and stars were created after plants on day 3. It says there was light before there were sources of light (the Sun, Moon and stars). It also says there were flying creatures (day 5) before all of the land creatures (day 6). The day-age theory involves the sequence in Genesis 1 being the same, just stretched out over time.

Another somewhat popular theory is the Gap Theory which I think is very problematic.
I'm not sure how you get that, it's not how I read it in English, and it's certainly not how the Jewish sages have read it in Hebrew for thousands of years.
Perhaps your hermenuetics is a bit skew wif.
 
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So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.
The second part seems quite correct, but the first part seems a little generous. It seems much more likely that the people who wrote the Bible actually believed that was how the world began.
 
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A_Thinker

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.


I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.


So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.
This can be resolved within the understanding of how the scriptures came to be. The scriptures were written by 40+ men who were inspired by God to write.

It is obvious that there was no human witness to the Creation. So, then, ... the only way that the creation narrative could have made it into words in a scroll ... is that God communicated the narrative (of what happened millennia ago) to a man (whom we believe to be Moses) ... who wrote that inspiration down to the best of his ability.

So ... the gist of the narrative is found in the first verse ... "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." The following narrative attempts to give us some detail, but it is not necessary that we accede to the chronology given. We already know that the time periods have to be something other than we what we currently experience as 24-hour days. Why we would expect the details of the process of creation to be precisely portrayed ? It's like expecting Igor to accurately regurgitate the process by which Frankenstein created his monster.

We accept such an understanding in the case of interpretation of other Biblical writings, perhaps most particularly, the last book of the Bible, Revelations. We recognize in that writing that John is striving to the best of his ability, to describe what he saw in his vision, but few readers take his every word literally.

One of the basic truths presented in scripture ... is that God's "evolutionary" stature is so much greater than ours ... that there is an understanding gap between He and humanity. He says, in Isaiah and other places in scripture ...

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so My ways are higher than your ways
and My thoughts than your thoughts.

I believe that it is time to accept this truth. If God is anything close to Who we interpret Him to be from scripture, ... then there exists a degree of unfathomableness to Him for us, and to His works. We, simply, are not His "evolutionary" equal. He condescends to us, ... and we struggle ... in our understanding of Him ...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The current mainstream scientific consesus is that the Big Bang happened about 13 billion years ago and the Earth and the solar system are about 4.5 billion years old.


I assume "heavens" means empty space because the stars were created on day 4 and there was no light yet.


So the light and darkness was in respect to the Earth - it wasn't yet associated with the Sun.

It says the stars were created on day 4 - even though Earth is orbiting a third generation star - which means some stars existed before the Earth existed.

If the writers of Genesis had insight into the true reality I thought they'd say that stars existed before the earth...

Also the Earth is orbiting around the Sun - even though the Sun apparently was created a few days after the Earth.

I think the following is a good interpretation of Genesis:
Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

So maybe it is just all some kind of poetry and has about zero relevance to reality.

No, it's poetic and your reference to that Wiki article is, I think, generally correct, and I tend to like the views of Gordan Wenham. But just because Genesis 1 is poetic in structure doesn't mean then that it has zero relevance to reality, especially if the purpose of the writing was to serve as a cosmogonic corrective to the usual origins stories that existed during the time in which the author of Genesis was writing. See the following article by the late Conrad Hyers for additional details on this approach, one that's in line with your article.

The Genre of Genesis 1 is "Cosmogony" - Articles
 
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miamited

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Hi john,

Thanks for your response:
I used to be a YEC too... here is my story - plus a cartoon about an ex-YEC:
From content YEC to depressed atheist


I hope that you'll take this response in the love that its intended.

If you were led to be an atheist, then you know that what you believed wasn't the truth. No one who has been born again can then believe that there is no God. They can always refuse to declare that Jesus is Lord at some point in their life, or just refuse to follow the Spirit with which they have been given, but to claim that there is no God simply means that they never knew the truth to begin with.

Jesus asked Peter at one point when a lot of folks had turned away and departed after a particularly difficult teaching, if he also wanted to leave? Peter replied, "Where else would I go? Only you have the words of eternal life". Peter had been born of the Spirit, and therefore knew that there was no other truth concerning the spiritual things that Jesus had been teaching them.

Each one is free to believe as they will and I have expressed what I believe. In one of the books by Lee Strobel's 'case for...' series, he writes of a man who had been strong in the Lord and then turned away. He tells Lee, with tears running down his cheek, that what he misses about his days of faith is Jesus. I think it's telling that this man, after leaving aside his faith in the promises of God was depressed and, according to your post, you also are now a 'depressed atheist'. What if you too, are missing Jesus?

He will always take us back. God is faithful even when we are not. That's the picture we get from His everlasting love for Israel.

For me, I suppose it could happen, but I can't imagine not believing that God exists with the relationship that I have had with Him. It has, however, been studied and fairly well reported that university is where many young people lose their faith. The wisdom of man turns us away from the truth of God. Just as you seem to have found, holding fast to the account of our beginnings among the many and varied explanations of men that deny the plain truth of God, is one of the great stumbling blocks.

The Scriptures teach of God sending among us a great deception. I have long thought that of all the deceptions of men that turn them away from God, these theories of billions of years of evolutionary process are likely the greatest deception.

God bless you. If I can help in any way to regain your faith, I'm here.


In Christ, ted
 
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Pavel Mosko

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@Halbhh:
@Anguspure:
@Pavel Mosko:

About day-age theories:

In Genesis 1, the Earth existed before light itself but in the Big Bang light was basically there right from the start and the Earth formed billions of years later. It says the Sun, Moon and stars were created after plants on day 3. It says there was light before there were sources of light (the Sun, Moon and stars). It also says there were flying creatures (day 5) before all of the land creatures (day 6). The day-age theory involves the sequence in Genesis 1 being the same, just stretched out over time.

Another somewhat popular theory is the Gap Theory which I think is very problematic.

Ross is able to answer all these kind of questions.
QUANTUM MECHANICS, A MODERN GOLIATH by Hugh Ross, Ph.D. – Evidence for Christianity


@Halbhh:
@Anguspure:
@Pavel Mosko:

About day-age theories:

In Genesis 1, the Earth existed before light itself but in the Big Bang light was basically there right from the start and the Earth formed billions of years later. It says the Sun, Moon and stars were created after plants on day 3. It says there was light before there were sources of light (the Sun, Moon and stars). It also says there were flying creatures (day 5) before all of the land creatures (day 6). The day-age theory involves the sequence in Genesis 1 being the same, just stretched out over time.

Another somewhat popular theory is the Gap Theory which I think is very problematic.


There are ways around these kind of problems. Harmonization is probably the best one. The issue of conflict, or at least apparent conflict between biblical texts is an age old one going back to at least the time of King Hezekiah. There are sometimes discrepancies etc. in Biblical texts based on their source etc. But the kind of issues get harmonized (reconciled) and this sort of thing is also true when dealing with science and the Biblical texts and Hugh Ross is an expert at that. Even I as newbie can see some possibilities in what you mentioned before dealing with near eastern creation narrative conventions, God is light according to the Gospel of John, he also is pre-existent (existed before the creation, outside of time etc.) according to Early Church theology based on numerous biblical citations.
 
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Excuse me for commenting, but this looks interesting...
If you were led to be an atheist, then you know that what you believed wasn't the truth. No one who has been born again can then believe that there is no God. They can always refuse to declare that Jesus is Lord at some point in their life, or just refuse to follow the Spirit with which they have been given, but to claim that there is no God simply means that they never knew the truth to begin with.
Dan Barker - ardent preacher for many years, later turned atheist - had this to say:
"Since I have become an atheist I often hear from believers who tell me that I could not possibly have been a true Christian or I would never have left Christianity. If I had truly known Jesus personally, like they do, then I never would have denied him. I must have been merely pretending to convince myself that God was real, they insist. Well, yes, I know exactly what they are saying. I used to preach that sermon. I preached it, believed it, knew it and felt it."
You can say, Dan Barker - or any ex-Christian - cannot have been a true Christian, or they never would have denied God. But it works the other way round too. You say you know God, that you are 100% certain He exists, you can never and would never deny Him?
That's what Dan Barker said. And He believed it. He doesn't any more. He's realised he was wrong.

Each one is free to believe as they will and I have expressed what I believe. In one of the books by Lee Strobel's 'case for...' series, he writes of a man who had been strong in the Lord and then turned away. He tells Lee, with tears running down his cheek, that what he misses about his days of faith is Jesus. I think it's telling that this man, after leaving aside his faith in the promises of God was depressed and, according to your post, you also are now a 'depressed atheist'. What if you too, are missing Jesus?
You won't mind if I take that story with a grain of salt? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Strobel embellished the story - or, quite possibly, simply made it up.
You should also know that many ex-Christians report feeling great freedom, a sense of wonder, an increased sense of empathy and morality, and the ability to become more moral persons.
 
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Halbhh

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@Halbhh:
@Anguspure:
@Pavel Mosko:

About day-age theories:

In Genesis 1, the Earth existed before light itself but in the Big Bang light was basically there right from the start and the Earth formed billions of years later. It says the Sun, Moon and stars were created after plants on day 3. It says there was light before there were sources of light (the Sun, Moon and stars). It also says there were flying creatures (day 5) before all of the land creatures (day 6). The day-age theory involves the sequence in Genesis 1 being the same, just stretched out over time.

Another somewhat popular theory is the Gap Theory which I think is very problematic.

"in the Big Bang light was basically there right from the start" == I'm expecting you know (or should learn very fast just below) that the scripture certainly says instead something else.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

"darkness"

and then:
Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

I'm pointing this out to be helpful. People naturally, inevitably let their ideas overwrite what the text actually says. Everyone can do this. It's normal.

We should instead just listen to the scripture itself, instead of the theory C5, or D17, people have told us somewhere.

Here's a vastly more serious problem than not reading the text carefully: trying to justify or support or see a doctrine, when you read scripture.

That's so dangerous (and so common I fear).

It's so crucial to keep in mind a doctrine isn't actually scripture (most doctrines are instead about things scripture doesn't definitely pin down). A doctrine is only an idea someone came up with. It can be right or wrong. (Of course, obviously many have to be wrong, since many contradict other doctrines, etc.)

They are ok -- having an idea is ok... if a person can remember it's only an idea, just a mere viewpoint, and not actually the living Word.

Right? Don't you agree? So, therefore, since the scripture doesn't say "in the Big Bang light was basically there right from the start" (and in fact actually instead says the Earth was in darkness at a time....), then is it ok with you if I don't just take that idea as scripture?

Scripture says to me
2Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. ...

!

Ergo, the first moment of the Universe, according to a popular theory from astronomy -- the Big Bang -- cannot be the "light" of the first special day of creation, to me, a believer.

(As it so happens, astrophysicists don't think the very early Universe was generally lit up with light either(!). Just informational -- they have a entirely different view than imagining the Early Universe as being lit with light:
"The dark ages of the universe — an era of darkness that existed before the first stars and galaxies — mostly remain a mystery because there is so little of it to see..."
The Universe's Dark Ages: How Our Cosmos Survived | Space


If you are going to reference the Big Bang, a theory from astrophysicists, it's good to learn they believe Earth first began to form about 4.54 bn years ago, but the Universe suddenly came into existence according to the current estimate about 13.8 bn years ago.

I can sorta understand how this confusion about the Big Bang and "let there be light" first arose.

People didn't read carefully or much.

But we should not continue to propagate their mistake.
 
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Halbhh

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In case I wrote too long a post just above it says:

Scripture tells us the earth was initially in darkness, and then God said let there be light -- Genesis 1:2-3.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You should also know that many ex-Christians report feeling great freedom, a sense of wonder, an increased sense of empathy and morality, and the ability to become more moral persons.

The amazing thing here for me is that when I became a Christian at age 17, and other than having to then begin contending with the inroads which Hugh Hefner's Playboy Philosophy had already made into my heart and mind at that time, my own Christianizing process was one where I generally felt "a great freedom, a sense of wonder, an increased sense of empathy and morality," much like Dan Barker says he felt when he 'let go' of his Christianity. Ironic, ay?

However, I will admit one caveat, one that is, I think, inline with what Paul says in his letter to the Romans, and that caveat is this: Honestly speaking, the ability to become a more moral person didn't come to me overnight, and I'm wondering if in Dan Barker's case whether or not he could say he indeed gained an ability to ACTUALLY become a more moral person, even overnight?

Somehow, I think someone is fudging the facts about his 'ability to be more moral' ... I'd rather like to think that it's not me. :dontcare:

[I'm sorry to go slightly off topic, @JohnClay, but @InterestedAtheist just had to take us there. In staying in line with the thrust of this thread, I will say that what I've said above has been affected by the ways in which I learned to interpret Genesis 1 and in seeing the nature of the physical world the way I do, one that can appreciate the insights of Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson on the one hand, and those of folks like Francis Collins and BioLogos, on the other].
 
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Halbhh

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Excuse me for commenting, but this looks interesting...

Dan Barker - ardent preacher for many years, later turned atheist - had this to say:
"Since I have become an atheist I often hear from believers who tell me that I could not possibly have been a true Christian or I would never have left Christianity. If I had truly known Jesus personally, like they do, then I never would have denied him. I must have been merely pretending to convince myself that God was real, they insist. Well, yes, I know exactly what they are saying. I used to preach that sermon. I preached it, believed it, knew it and felt it."
You can say, Dan Barker - or any ex-Christian - cannot have been a true Christian, or they never would have denied God. But it works the other way round too. You say you know God, that you are 100% certain He exists, you can never and would never deny Him?
That's what Dan Barker said. And He believed it. He doesn't any more. He's realised he was wrong.


You won't mind if I take that story with a grain of salt? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Strobel embellished the story - or, quite possibly, simply made it up.
You should also know that many ex-Christians report feeling great freedom, a sense of wonder, an increased sense of empathy and morality, and the ability to become more moral persons.

You've just shown us exactly what Jesus said.

Jesus said any and all and every person that doesn't actively do the radical and unusual commands He gave would always end up losing their version of faith, the house they built on the foundation they used:

Matthew 7 NIV verses 24-27

As your account you've written here directly shows us all.

Look at what you report to us:

"ex-Christians report an increased...empathy and morality"

That's a direct example of the Matthew 7:24-27 outcome.

According to your own report to us, these individuals did not have that "empathy" -- "love one another" -- until after they left. They didn't do it during the time they thought they were "Christian".

That's Matthew 7:24-27 proving true.

That's plain and clear the information you've told us here. But can you yourself notice it?
 
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