Biblical Creationism and Self Deceit

KarjamP · Jun 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
As I have said before I don't like seeing Jesus being drug through the muck and his image damaged.

Truth to be told, the Young Earth Creationists are amongst the most vocal of us Christians in spite of being in the minority to such an extent, that many detractors of Christianity stereotype Christians as being mainly them.

Most of us are Old Earth Creationists. That is, we believe the scientists when they say the world is millions of years old and that evolution had taken place. In fact, most Christian denominations of the world accept evolution as being true. Even the Roman Catholic Church.

What I don't like about Young Earth Creationists is that they tend to use questionable tactics in an attempt to prove that they're right, whether or not they're aware of this fact. Questionable tactics being misinterpreting the actual science involved, using logical fallacies to make it seem like they're stumping non-Young Earth Creationists or even misquoting reputable scientists.

redleghunter · Jun 29, 2015

Matthias Rose said:
The interesting thing is that "how the world was made" is of negligible importance to how any of us live our lives.

There are ways in which the rejection of scientific understanding are damaging the world, but evolution vs. creation is really of very little moral or material value one way or the other. The entire universe could have been created 10 minutes ago, with all my memories of having been alive longer than that part and parcel of creation. Even that would not make the slightest difference in the life of love and compassion that I am called to.

A reasoned response, but this generation, our post-modern society most cannot get past "In the Beginning God..." All truth stems from the very first words. So I ask...where do you see the Bible stop being myth or allegory and becomes clear truth? Did Abraham exist? Did Moses with God's Power divide the Red Sea? Where do you draw the line? Yet even a reasoned Christian must look at the revealed truth of the NT:

John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (NKJV)

KarjamP · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
Interesting use of Scriptures to support your thesis, yet for some reason Genesis has it all wrong. You make a lot of assumptions with substantiation. Are you implying the verses you quoted as divinely inspired but somehow Genesis was not? And what exactly have scientists proven in the ways to disprove there is One God who is the uncreated Creator? If you can provide some of this witness testimony from millions if not billions of years ago, please show us. Thanks.

He didn't say it wasn't inspired. He's essentially saying that the creation account, as portrayed within the book of Genesis, shouldn't be interpreted as a literal 24 day week simply because scientists say "no". Please don't misinterpret the argument of others.

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

1213 said:
Hmmm… it seems to me that it is rather evolutionists that have problem with pride, because there is no real evidence that proves evolution theory correct (Evolution theory means in this that all species have developed form single species over very long time).

If evolution theory, or new mother earth cult, is correct, we should see things happens as evolution theory suggests. For example we should be able to breed mouse to water animal, or something like that. All real things in nature can be observed and usually also repeated, if we want to call them scientific and not metaphysical.

In my opinion the name of science is discredited by metaphysical ideas like evolution theory, in the above meaning.

However, I think some ideas that are connected to evolution theory can be correct and they are not in contradiction with the Bible, for example heredity and genes. After all, if we believe what the Bible tells, in the Ark, there were 8 people. Yet today we have many different looking people. So clearly it is possible that some changes can happen in heredity, if we believe what the Bible tells. Different thing is, is it really possible that for example fish could become mouse or something similar. I don’t think we have any good evidence for that kind of change.

But anyway, it is good warning, pride is deceiving thing.

Who cares what evolutionists think? We are examining creationism. The theory of creationism is founded on the book of Genesis which clearly states the earth was created before the sun and the stars. Put down your pride and answer the question. Do you have evidence that supports this?

redleghunter · Jun 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
And if that's how you feel that is fine. But that is clearly not true for everyone. For example, if you could scientifically prove the Genesis story you would have converts coming from all directions. But since Creationists try to foolishly do that and cannot, you are losing converts. This is why the wiser churches are trying to distance themselves. They are making Christianity look bad.

You really think if someone had 100% physical proof (which is subjective) of Genesis converts would be streaming to a church near you? I disagree. Not believing in the truths of God's Word is an excuse because most do not want to submit to God's authority as Lord and Savior. Most of mankind loves their 'idols' their sin. Their minds make excuses that there is no God and no consequences.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.(NKJV)

The above is from the New Testament, not Genesis.

I love science...good science. Things that can be examined via observation.

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

klatu said:
I recently completed a study of over three hundred references to self deception. These have been taken not just from the canonical scriptures but also from the much greater collection of non canonical matrial including the recent discoveries of Nag Hammadi Library and Dead Sea Scrolls. And the overwhelming character of this material to warn not only self deception but of being deceived by others on the nature of God's Word. The problem with so much warning is ask why the means to comprehend and expose this counterfeit word does not exist or has not been revealed? As all of the existing faith traditions are theological, who can be true if no one is false? Or does that mean that all might be false. That theology is not a valid human intellectual endeavor! Does theology only exist because nothing has been revealed. And then what if a second coming takes place and deliverers a message antagonistic to theological tradition? Is that the very nature of what any 'last judgement' we be? History has yet to draw that line. But one thing is clear. some one must be wrong! There must be individuals, traditions, even institutions retailing a false salvation to a gullible world. And I wouldn't wish to be in their shoes when the Lord decides it's time to sort it out.

Why would the Lord have allowed his followers to become so decieved? It is likely the pride they hold that makes them so self rightious in their unswerving belief. They become so self rightious they are no longer capable of considering the possibility they might be wrong.

redleghunter · Jun 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
Then we need to recognize biblical creation is not supported by science.

Who says you? Show me where science can 100% 'prove' (subjective vs. evidence is objective) an uncreated Creator did not create the world. Show me how something coming from nothing is supported by science...you can't.

KarjamP · Jun 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
Who cares what evolutionists think? We are examining creationism. The theory of creationism is founded on the book of Genesis which clearly states the earth was created before the sun and the stars. Put down your pride and answer the question. Do you have evidence that supports this?

"Proof", alone, isn't enough to convince anyone. People need to be willing to believe in order to be convinced. It's for this reason why Jesus refused to prove to the Pharisees who he is in spite of them asking for proof.

I can just imagine some of the more reputable Young Earth Creationists using fancy words, misinterpreted evidence and misquotes of both the bible and of actual scientists in an attempt to prove that Earth's as young as they say. Even if their evidence is sound, no one would be convinced - mankind is stubbornous by nature.

I heard of an experiment a few years back done by scientists. They basically took showed political propaganda to two different sides: Those that agree with it and those that don't. When they're showed both sides actual, true information, neither sides were convinced. In fact, it ironically strengthened the faith in those that believed the propaganda in a type of confirmation bias they dubbed the "backfire effect".

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
You really think if someone had 100% physical proof (which is subjective) of Genesis converts would be streaming to a church near you? I disagree. Not believing in the truths of God's Word is an excuse because most do not want to submit to God's authority as Lord and Savior. Most of mankind loves their 'idols' their sin. Their minds make excuses that there is no God and no consequences.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.(NKJV)

The above is from the New Testament, not Genesis.

I love science...good science. Things that can be examined via observation.

There are many Christians who accept science and would disagree.

KarjamP · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
You really think if someone had 100% physical proof (which is subjective) of Genesis converts would be streaming to a church near you? I disagree. Not believing in the truths of God's Word is an excuse because most do not want to submit to God's authority as Lord and Savior. Most of mankind loves their 'idols' their sin. Their minds make excuses that there is no God and no consequences.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.(NKJV)

The above is from the New Testament, not Genesis.

I love science...good science. Things that can be examined via observation.

Those verses could also apply to Old Earth Creationism in that it was God who guided the world down its current evolutionary path. In the end, it's down to how you interpreted the verses, not whether or not it says Earth's really thousands of years old.

redleghunter · Jun 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
You are free to engage with science. But if you are going to try to advance your creationist theory you will need to find some evidence to support it. Poking holes in evolution does nothing to enhance your case which is also contradicted by most other science as well. Your theory states that the earth was created before the sun or the stars. There is nothing in science that would support that. You are taking a beautiful allegorical account of creation and turning it into something to be ridiculed. Clearly you have little understanding of science that you would compare it to politics. All Creationists are doing is engaging in self deceit and deceit of others.

Your statements reveal one thing...You omit an uncreated Creator. That's the self deception. Perhaps this would be a good point to ask you what you see as literal truth vs. allegory in the Holy Scriptures? For example do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He performed miracles that defy the laws of physics? Let's hang our hat there...with the miracles of Jesus Christ. Were they the accounts of raving lunatics or literal?

redleghunter · Jun 29, 2015

KarjamP said:
Those verses could also apply to Old Earth Creationism in that it was God who guided the world down its current evolutionary path. In the end, it's down to how you interpreted the verses, not whether or not it says Earth's really thousands of years old.

Or we could recognize the same God who could defy the laws of physics (miracles) in our world in both the NT and OT could actually do what He said He did. Are the miracles of Christ literal or allegorical? Or the ravings of some lunatics?

redleghunter · Jun 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
Okay, so where is your evidence to support your theory? To advance any theory science first accumulates the evidence. I am informed the idea of the "Big Bang" started from the mind of a Christian. However that did not make it a theory until a great deal of evidence was accumulated in support of it. If the evidence were against it, the idea would have been tossed right out. That means that all you have is just another idea. Do you have evidence?

Show us the evidence for "Big Bang." There's none. It is not even scientific theory. Scientists give their best guess of origins based on their assumption there is no uncreated Creator.

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

KarjamP said:
"Proof", alone, isn't enough to convince anyone. People need to be willing to believe in order to be convinced. It's for this reason why Jesus refused to prove to the Pharisees who he is in spite of them asking for proof.

I can just imagine some of the more reputable Young Earth Creationists using fancy words, misinterpreted evidence and misquotes of both the bible and of actual scientists in an attempt to prove that Earth's as young as they say. Even if their evidence is sound, no one would be convinced - mankind is stubbornous by nature.

I heard of an experiment a few years back done by scientists. They basically took showed political propaganda to two different sides: Those that agree with it and those that don't. When they're showed both sides actual, true information, neither sides were convinced. In fact, it ironically strengthened the faith in those that believed the propaganda in a type of confirmation bias they dubbed the "backfire effect".

You are drifting off instead of answering the question. I just stated your theory for you. Now that we have become more acquainted with our solar system and the universe the question is... do you continue to believe an ancient text of questionable origin which points to an earth centered view of all reality or are you you willing to acknowledge our planet being the third from the sun was not likely created before all the other planets and the sun?

redleghunter · Jun 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
As I have said before I don't like seeing Jesus being drug through the muck and his image damaged.

Perhaps you could illuminate us on what your 'image' of Jesus Christ is.

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
Perhaps you could illuminate us on what your 'image' of Jesus Christ is.

I would be happy to in a different thread.

KarjamP · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
Or we could recognize the same God who could defy the laws of physics (miracles) in our world in both the NT and OT could actually do what He said He did. Are the miracles of Christ literal or allegorical? Or the ravings of some lunatics?

Most of us Christians don't often state our beliefs about Earth's age.

Nonetheless, arguing about this is irrelevant on one's beliefs in Christ. In fact, we shouldn't even be trying to prove others wrong in the first place unless their beliefs blatantly contradicts the core teachings of the bible.

Yes, he could defy the laws of reality, but who's to say he didn't use "evolution" to create the world millions of years ago? After all, he can do literally anything. Even bring dragons into existence.

When the original poster says that the Young Earth Creationists are prideful, he's referring to the fact that many of the Young Earth Creationists are people who believe that their beliefs are the only ones that's right and that everyone else's interpretation is wrong (even if they're of the same religion). Something very akin to arrogance (or hubris).

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
Show us the evidence for "Big Bang." There's none. It is not even scientific theory. Scientists give their best guess of origins based on their assumption there is no uncreated Creator.

Then why did a Christian think of it? This is not about the Big Bang. This is about the book of Genesis the foundation of Creationism.

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
Or we could recognize the same God who could defy the laws of physics (miracles) in our world in both the NT and OT could actually do what He said He did. Are the miracles of Christ literal or allegorical? Or the ravings of some lunatics?

Do you presume your answer to that is going to be more believable than another?

Givemeareason · Jun 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
Your statements reveal one thing...You omit an uncreated Creator. That's the self deception. Perhaps this would be a good point to ask you what you see as literal truth vs. allegory in the Holy Scriptures? For example do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He performed miracles that defy the laws of physics? Let's hang our hat there...with the miracles of Jesus Christ. Were they the accounts of raving lunatics or literal?

I have done no such thing. And this thread is not about Jesus so I would prefer you stay on topic.

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