Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation of Masonry

Skip Sampson · Mar 19, 2013

ChristianMasonJim said:
FYI, the Grand Master himself stated (I was at the instructional meeting) that a tyled lodge CANNOT be opened without the Holy Bible present and open on the alter.

Can a Lodge be opened without the Master present? The Senior Warden? The Junior Warden? The Square? The Compass? The Tyler? The Altar? And so forth?

So such comments have very little meaning as to the assessed value of the Bible itself within Masonry. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Mar 19, 2013

You are among the majority of Masons who do not bother to read GL training documentation, yet are quick to comment on what the GL teaches.

Spin duly noted. Lameness of your spin, even more so.

Fact is, there is no real effort to get these distributed to anyone in our lodges. There is no requirement that any candidate of any degree must see or hear anything found in the LSME, or even be aware that there is such a thing. In fact, the first time I ever saw one or was even made aware that we had one, was at the recent wardens workshop where it appeared with some other materials for purchase.

Our degree work is done mouth to ear, and no booklets such as these are used in the process. I never was given one, nor was anyone who went up with me. I've seen a lot of degree work, and never saw these at all or heard them mentioned.

If you are correct in your claim that "the majority of Masons do not read them," you need to adjust your manner of stating it, becauuse you seem to suggest apathy as the reason. My guess is, given what I've seen in our jurisdiction, the reason they haven't read is they've never even heard of it. Probably the same elsewhere as well. If there's a reason for that, it might be because the impetus for it seems to come from the Masonic Service Association. I've noticed the same thing in regard to church members and materials or programs that come to them from outside their own local church. The farther up the chain it comes from, the less interest there will usually be in it.

Don't know what you do with that, not that it matters, you're gonna make more of anything than there ever was to it anyway.

Skip Sampson · Mar 21, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
you seem to suggest apathy as the reason.

Apathy isn't the only reason. I've found that Masons rely heavily on what they hear from other Masons, and not what the GL teaches. It is the subjective view of the collective, vice objective statements of the GL that seem to hold sway. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Mar 21, 2013

I've found that Masons rely heavily on what they hear from other Masons, and not what the GL teaches.

You could do well to learn about the attentive ear, because apparently you weren't paying attention. When it comes to learning the degree work, it's ALL done without the LSME booklets. So there's a good reason they rely heavily on what they hear from other Masons--that's EXACTLY how they learn the work!

Skip Sampson · Mar 28, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
When it comes to learning the degree work, it's ALL done without the LSME booklets. So there's a good reason they rely heavily on what they hear from other Masons--that's EXACTLY how they learn the work!

All very nice, but I wasn't referring to the degree work. Cordially, Skip.

he-man · Mar 29, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
Some time ago, I was invited by the founder of O.F.F. to start a thread listing the Christian references/interpretations and biblical content that can be found in Masonry, and "let's talk about them."

Mr 6:3 Is not this person the mason, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and Juda, and Simon? and is not anyone here besides us and his sisters? And they were scandalized in him.
* Greek 5045 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]τέκτονος τέκτων mason [Rth Ph '48 4 BAGD][/FONT][/FONT]

Rev Wayne · Apr 8, 2013

he-man said:
Mr 6:3 Is not this person the mason, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and Juda, and Simon? and is not anyone here besides us and his sisters? And they were scandalized in him.
* Greek 5045 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]τέκτονος τέκτων mason [Rth Ph '48 4 BAGD][/FONT][/FONT]

You do realize your source on this is a wiki site that any reader can edit? There is not a translation I can find that agrees, the closest any version comes to this that I can find is the International Standard Version, which has "builder" as its translation.

Rev Wayne · Apr 8, 2013

Skip Sampson said:
All very nice, but I wasn't referring to the degree work. Cordially, Skip.

Nice try, but we WERE discussing the degree work, and the absence of any LSME booklets in the process:

Our degree work is done mouth to ear, and no booklets such as these are used in the process. I never was given one, nor was anyone who went up with me. I've seen a lot of degree work, and never saw these at all or heard them mentioned.

If you are correct in your claim that "the majority of Masons do not read them," you need to adjust your manner of stating it, becauuse you seem to suggest apathy as the reason. My guess is, given what I've seen in our jurisdiction, the reason they haven't read it is they've never even heard of it.

Your own comment was:

I've found that Masons rely heavily on what they hear from other Masons, and not what the GL teaches.

I went up in '04. The booklet I have is 2006 and is described as "Revised Edition." So it's been available for some time, and was probably available at the time I came in. Yet I've never seen anyone use this booklet in the process of bringing any candidate through the degree work.

That really makes it a false assertion to be referring to this as "what the Grand Lodge teaches," when it's all too evident they are NOT teaching it to anyone, and it is NOT part of any "system" of education in our jurisdiction. You'd think that for someone to figure this is "what the GL teaches," there'd have to be at least SOMEONE who could tell you this was a part of what they were "taught."

he-man · Apr 8, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
You do realize your source on this is a wiki site that any reader can edit? There is not a translation I can find that agrees, the closest any version comes to this that I can find is the International Standard Version, which has "builder" as its translation.

So you discredit Rth Ph '48 4 BAGD?
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G5045 τέκτονος τέκτων mason [/FONT][/FONT]

a mason (λιθολόγος), Th.6.44, cf. Ar.Av.1154: freq. in Inscrr., IG12.373.245, etc., and Papyri, PCair.Zen.27.3 (iii B.C.), etc;

λι^θόλογ-ος , ὁ, (λέγω (B) 1) <DIV class="lex_sense lex_sense1">A. [select] one who picks out stones for building: hence, one who builds with stones picked out to fit their places, not squared (cf. “λογάς” 2), BSA3.112 (Athens): so generally, mason, Pl.Lg.858b;

www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=te/ktwn&la=greek

Skip Sampson · Apr 8, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
Nice try, but we WERE discussing the degree work, and the absence of any LSME booklets in the process:

Untrue. We were discussing what the GL teaches.

That really makes it a false assertion to be referring to this as "what the Grand Lodge teaches," when it's all too evident they are NOT teaching it to anyone, and it is NOT part of any "system" of education in our jurisdiction.

That is similarly incorrect. Its content is what the GL teaches, and whether people use it or not, or learn it or not, is immaterial. It is the doctrinal position of your GL.

As to its not being it part of the system, its very title shows how wrong you remain. And, as I've also noted earlier, Masons general rely on anecdotal evidence from other Masons for what they know about the 'teachings' of Masonry. Were they to use the GL material, they would probably be surprised by it.

Your GL has not responded to my request to obtain their LSME, so I'll patiently await the day when one becomes available by other means. But I have other GL documentation that clearly shows what the SC GL really teaches, so it's not a critical issue. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Apr 9, 2013

As to its not being it part of the system, its very title shows how wrong you remain.

Typical twist, but that's okay, I've come to expect it from you. I did NOT state it was not part of "the" system. I simply said that as long as it is not being taught to anyone, it can't be described as something systematically taught in our jurisdiction.

I got an interesting confirmation on that note at our last meeting. I had a copy of it with me and shared it with a member who is a past DDGM, and probably the most knowledgeable person I have met in any lodge I've attended, on the subject of Masonry. I shared with him that I had not been aware we even had anything like that, and he said, "I didn't know we had it either."

Your GL has not responded to my request to obtain their LSME, so I'll patiently await the day when one becomes available by other means.

Sorry, they won't be contacting you, you're not a Mason and can't provide the necessary information to show your affiliation here. Even if you were a Mason--which I presume would mean some other jurisdiction--you still couldn't get it directly from them. Masonic protocol doesn't vary much in that regard, the way to obtain materials from another jurisdiction is, you have to submit the request for it through your own Grand Lodge.

But I have other GL documentation that clearly shows what the SC GL really teaches, so it's not a critical issue.

Oh, then you're aware of some significant differences, I take it, when it comes to SC? Like, for instance, our LSME booklets don't go the route you've pointed out with some others, and still maintain there the same thing that is found in our monitor, that "The Great Lights in Masonry are the Holy Bible, square, and compass."

Guess you can't pull that funny business you tried to pull before, asserting *smirk* LSME booklets over monitors, and even trying to assert it over ritual.

Skip Sampson · Apr 10, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
I simply said that as long as it is not being taught to anyone, it can't be described as something systematically taught in our jurisdiction.

But it still remains the doctrine of your GL, regardless who did or did not read it.

I had a copy of it with me and shared it with a member who is a past DDGM, and probably the most knowledgeable person I have met in any lodge I've attended, on the subject of Masonry. I shared with him that I had not been aware we even had anything like that, and he said, "I didn't know we had it either."

Makes him look less knowledgeable than you are, which is quite a feat.

Sorry, they won't be contacting you,

You never know. They were kind enough to sell me a copy of the Ahiman Rezon, which amply demonstrates SC GL teachings. I'll let you know when I get one. It'll be interesting to see how the AR matches up to the LSME.

Masonic protocol doesn't vary much in that regard, the way to obtain materials from another jurisdiction is, you have to submit the request for it through your own Grand Lodge.

Obviously it does vary quite a bit, as I've received full training and ritual documentation from about a dozen GL's, just by asking. They see no reason to hide their teachings from the general public. The next time we discuss the 'secrets' of Masonry, my guess is that the SC GL LSME will be part of that discussion, as it's obviously treated as one by the GL, and yourself, apparently. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Apr 10, 2013

But it still remains the doctrine of your GL, regardless who did or did not read it.

Gee, that's strange. Mine says it's optional and therefore up to the individual lodges. Optional materials are hardly "doctrine." I think you misunderstand the purpose of the booklet, and therefore accord too much weight to it. No doubt you're guilty of having done the same thing in regard to LSME booklets from other jurisdictions as well. But then, I knew that already.

Makes him look less knowledgeable than you are

Actually, this comment shows your own lack of knowledge, to make such comments about someone you never met. This guy's been around, is in his late 70's, 50+ year Mason, as past DDGM has naturally been to an abundance of lodges and degree work. If this guy didn't know about it, you can bet, it's just not that popular or very much in use. Probably has to do with that optional thing.

I'll let you know when I get one.

I'll put in a word for you, that really oughtta help.

It'll be interesting to see how the AR matches up to the LSME.

Well, that really should be interesting. Especially since we already know that Ahiman Rezon is is a cut above "optional." Fact is, Code and Constitution are Masonic law here (see Code, sec. 6).

I've received full training and ritual documentation from about a dozen GL's, just by asking.

Guess you'll have to try to sell that one to someone who doesn't know any better. Especially the part about the ritual.

The next time we discuss the 'secrets' of Masonry, my guess is that the SC GL LSME will be part of that discussion, as it's obviously treated as one by the GL, and yourself, apparently.

Oh, I'd say that will be an interesting discussion for sure--especially when you start trying to sell the idea that the LSME enjoys a status that puts it on a par with monitor and ritual. When that happens, I'll be pointing you to page three, point 4 of "The Plan in Brief," which states "The plan is optional with the Lodges." Any plans you may have had, of trying to sell this booklet in the same manner you've tried to sell those from other jurisdictions, are already out the window. Take due notice thereof, and govern yourself accordingly.

Skip Sampson · Apr 11, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
Optional materials are hardly "doctrine."

Untrue. That they can be used and are promulgated by the GL make it doctrinal.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the booklet, and therefore accord too much weight to it.

Hardly, since I do not have it and only have your statement as to its existence.

Guess you'll have to try to sell that one to someone who doesn't know any better. Especially the part about the ritual.

Not selling anything, just stating the facts. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Apr 11, 2013

That they can be used and are promulgated by the GL make it doctrinal.

Really? Hmmm.....

prom·ul·gate
/präməlˌgāt/

Verb
1. Promote or make widely known

Hahahahahahaha! And to think, in your previous post you were trying to ridicule the fact that it is NOT widely known, now you're trying to claim it IS.

I do not have it and only have your statement as to its existence.

http://www.christianforums.com/users/13248-albums3495-45235.jpg

Better?

Not selling anything

I agree. But you get a B-minus for effort.

Skip Sampson · Apr 12, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
Really?

Yes, really:

prom·ul·gate

1. to make known by open declaration; publish; proclaim formally or put into operation (a law, decree of a court, etc.).
2. to set forth or teach publicly (a creed, doctrine, etc.). (Dictionary.com)

Better?

Yes, though unnecessary. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Apr 12, 2013

Yes, really:

So nobody seems to know anything about it, yet it's being "promulgated?" That's pretty rich, even from you.

1. to make known by open declaration;

Hasn't been done. Even a past DDGM wasn't aware we had it.

2. to set forth or teach publicly

Now you're claiming Masonry "teaches publicly?" You get weirder every day, Skip.

Yes, though unnecessary.

But at least you have no reason to lament that you have only "my statement as to its existence" now.

Skip Sampson · Apr 12, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
So nobody seems to know anything about it, yet it's being "promulgated?"

Yep. It's been published, set forth publically, is known by you and at least one other person, and is a teaching document.

But at least you have no reason to lament that you have only "my statement as to its existence" now.

No lament, merely a statement of fact. Cordially, Skip.

Rev Wayne · Apr 12, 2013

is known by you and at least one other person

Two people out of around 38,000 hardly constitutes "promulgating."

No lament, merely a statement of fact.

A fact which changed, of course, with the link.

Skip Sampson · Apr 12, 2013

Rev Wayne said:
Two people out of around 38,000 hardly constitutes "promulgating."

The number has nothing to do with the definition of the word, and the lsme has met that definition.

Why would you think only two Masons know about it? Do you think it wrote itself and just magically appeared one day? In reality, you have no clue how many Masons are aware of it. But your comments do highlight the facts that many SC Masons are unfamiliar with GL literature and how poorly the GL gets its message out. Fits into my view that most Masons are content with anecdotal evidence heard in the lodge as opposed to what the GL actually teaches. Or maybe they are just embarrassed by what the GL teaches. Either way, thanks for the insight. Cordially, Skip.

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