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Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

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Rev Wayne

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And, he cannot find a declaration from one Grand Lodge in the U.S. that says the practice of Freemasonry TODAY is as "Christian" as Wayne wants to deceive readers into thinking by the ancient material he posts.
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"Ancient?" Where, pray tell, did you get THAT impression? Let's take, for instance, the Short Talk Bulletins from the posts at the top of the previous page, and post them once more, this time with dates:









 
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Rev Wayne

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A Lodge is a certain number of Masons duly assembled, with the Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses, with a charter or warrant empowering them to work. ("A Lodge at Work," Short Talk Bulletin, May 1999)
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Two full posts of quotes, and the oldest one among them is 1953. In fact, other than one from 1972 and one from 1973, the rest of them all fall between the 1980's and the year 2000.

I'm not sure what your definition of "ancient" is, but you sure blew it with that answer. You and Skip make a great team, the readers would be hard put to figure out which one is more error-prone than the other.
 
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Skip Sampson

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Mike:
His main problem is circular reasoning. He decides what he wants to be true, then finds proof for it. He then reacts violently to being shown to be in error, then thrashes about seeking a way to show he wasn't really in error. If you look at his commentaries, you see a stream of consciousness, rather than cohesive, reasoned analysis. One would assume a trained pastor could present a logical, well-thought-out argument, but that doesn't seem to be the case with Wayne. Not sure why that is, but there it is anyway.

Wayne, is of course, free to present any views he wishes; however, I'd certainly wish he'd remember what he claims to be called to do and show that calling in his posts. Christians on these fora should remember who made us that, and our conduct should always glorify our savior. But we should also remember that the same man who called us to show love for each other also showed another side when dealing with the pharisees and money-changers. There's gotta be a balance in there somewhere. Would make for an interesting thread, don't you think? Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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His main problem is circular reasoning. He decides what he wants to be true, then finds proof for it
Click to expand...

Put some substance where your mouth is--where did this involve "circular reasoning" or "deciding what I want to be true, and finding proof for it," in this:


The proof was already right there when Mike jumped on the wrong post.

Strange how, when Mike steps into a cowpie, you come along and jump into it with him.

we should also remember that the same man who called us to show love for each other also showed another side when dealing with the pharisees
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Funny how you never start getting interested in anyone acting like Jesus until your arguments go down for the last spin. [/FONT]
 
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O.F.F.

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Indeed it would, please start it and watch him join in and continue to show his contempt to both his calling and the Gospel.
 
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O.F.F.

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Wayne,

You start this thread claiming, by its title, that your quoted sources are "monitorial." Skip and I have challenged you on their ancient dates, as well as the fact that most of what you post IS NOT MONITORIAL! And you come back with 20th century quotes from "Short Talk Bulletin."

So now you want to deceive readers into thinking that Short Talk Bulletin is "monitorial." Where, pray tell, did you get THAT impression? Or I should say, where did you get that LIE?
 
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Rev Wayne

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Mike, I realize you don't get to come around here as often as in the past, but still, when you do get around to posting, it would be wise to at least catch up with all that has transpired on the thread. If you had, maybe you wouldn't have missed a couple of pertinent points.

From the very first page of this thread, from the very first piece I posted that would not be described as "monitorial":

[Not "monitorial," but certainly part of Grand Lodge official documents, for each of the "proceedings" publications carries the seal of the Grand Lodge.]
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This thread was a breakout from the original as a courtesy, mainly because of Skip's attempts to limit what could be included. As the thread progressed, it became clear from Skip's complaints about it and attempts to redefine the parameters so he could limit it further, that continuing to give in to constant attempts to limit it further would be an endless distraction if I let it. So I took my own steps, since I was the author of the thread, to redefine it in the opposite direction he was trying to push it, so that not only "monitorial" sources, but ANY material created, published, posted on a GL website, or anything otherwise generated under Grand Lodge auspices, could also be brought into consideration. No malice intended, I just get tired of being told what I can include in the discussion, by people who impose no such self-limitations in their own discussions on the same points. I have as legitimate a right to set the parameters to include all GL-generated materials as being a notch beyond other Masonic sources, as Skip does to impose his own attempted limitations--in fact, even more so on a thread that I started.

The only non-monitorial source, to my knowledge, that I have posted since then, has been the MSA Short Talk Bulletins, which I clearly introduced with the following:
The only part I got wrong was the part where I stated "there certainly can be no objection from the antimasonic camp if I do the same."

You see, since Skip quoted the MSA as authoritative, and since you characterized his doing so as "reinforcement" of the point under discussion, I really didn't think either one of you would take the route of tacit admission of the hypocritical double standard that so often typifies your posting methods.

So you both really need to take notice, I am through with your duplicity on the matter of what you consider "authoritative" or not. You clearly only engage in it when you are employing it in regard to those who refute your claims, while freely citing whatever you wish in making your accusations. The line is drawn, and I refuse to go back to the position of simply allowing you to dictate what will or will not be posted, for you only use it to skew things to try to gain advantage. Those days are over.

The fact is, this thread was broken out from the original, only as a courtesy, in response to a challenge from Skip. To tweak it a bit to include ALL GL-generated/approved/sanctioned materials, rather than merely monitorial, is my prerogative as the author of the thread. As I stated at the time, I tried to go back, since there is no time limit on editing, and adjust the wording of the title to reflect the broader focus, but apparently once a thread title is selected, it cannot be altered. Rather than abandon the thread and what had already been posted to that point, I chose instead to simply state the intended shift and the rationale for it, and continue here. If you don't like the parameters of what is presented, you are perfectly free to dislike it all you wish. You are also free not to post in response to it if you wish. Naturally, that includes being free to cast all the aspersions upon it you wish. But I have no intent of abandoning the course taken, since there is no objection you could raise that could possibly alter it. You've fudged the lines long enough already, just ante up and pay the piper.

But you really gain nothing in the current exchange, in which you are all over the map. First you came in here spouting off about what I had just posted--specifically the Short Talk Bulletins--being "ancient." In doing so, you took the bait, for I intentionally separated out the most recent articles for one batch, knowing that Skip had already tried to make the same assertion earlier concerning the "Transactions." He too had to eat crow on the matter, when his accusation was followed up by 5 or 6 posts in a row that were at or near the posting limit, of Transactions which were even more recent than the Short Talk Bulletins just posted.

And now, since your initial barrage failed, in true antimasonic form, you shift gears and try to discredit what posts by other methods--in this instance, by going the "not monitorial" route that you guys are so good at declaring and so poor when it comes to adhering to it yourselves.

That was only the beginning. I have far MORE material from the Short Talk Bulletins alone, which will post as well. And despite the dates on which they were published, I have no problem taking them in equal consideration with the recent ones. For one thing, no one taking the antimasonic position worries about dates when THEY start posting. The propensity for most of them to go with Pike is the surest illustration of it. Morals and Dogma was 1871. I think the oldest STB's, if I recall, only go back to 1923. Those who favor Pike citations would hardly have a case, when Pike is compared with the STB's, for whining about the age of the sources. Nor would they have a case on "not Grand Lodge" grounds, for many Grand Lodges post MSA materials on a regular basis (where do you think I got them?), and GL statements of position quite often incorporate MSA statements into their own statements, or simply adopt the MSA statement on the matter in toto.

Not only that, there is this statement made by the MSA concerning the Short Talk Bulletins:


If continual reprinting, and continual demand for them, do not constitute current use, I don't know what does. You can sputter and spew all you wish, your attempted limitations are rejected.


Not only that, this is only the tip of the iceberg. I opened the door for any Grand Lodge generated material to be under consideration for this thread. Practically every Grand Lodge has a bulletin or magazine or journal that they issue, many of them with articles on the very same issues as those discussed in the STB's. Most of the Grand Lodges who DO have such publications, also have them online, many with archives that go back several years. I haven't even begun to post the findings from those GL-generated periodicals, I imagine they will add exponentially to the materials already posted.

The ironic twist is, objections about the age of materials is irrelevant on this particular thread anyway, which is equally true of its companion thread. Nothing contained in the rationale for the presentation of the materials on either thread, has anything at all to do with the time frame, so there is nothing on the thread or in the OP that is affected in the least by such an accusation. Continue to raise that objection, and I will continue to point out its irrelevance. Continue to raise the objection about what sort of materials get posted, and I will simply point out the irrelevance of that objection as well. This thread was broken out only as a courtesy to Skip so that, if he preferred, he could more easily determine which materials might be considered to carry the stamp of a GL, without necessarily having to wade through all the other sources that would otherwise be posted alongside them.

Now, you may respond as you please, but it should be evident from the materials posted, along with the introduction of those materials, and the reason for their inclusion, that you are certainly out of bounds in your attempt to label anything I've posted as "lying." I have been up-front with what I've posted, and with the rationale for including it, and I have not even once attempted to call "monitorial" that which is not. Please refrain from unsubstantiated accusations like this one, or simply refrain from comment at all.
 
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ChristianMasonJim

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O.F.F. said:
And, he cannot find a declaration from one Grand Lodge in the U.S. that says the practice of Freemasonry TODAY is as "Christian" as Wayne wants to deceive readers into thinking by the ancient material he posts.
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It is true that Freemasonry has, in some forms, become more ecumenical in approach, but it cannot be denied that the foundations of the Blue Lodge (that continue to be adhered to today) are absolutely rooted in Old and New testament teachings and stories, undeniably illustrated directly, symbolically, and allegorically in its three degrees. For those who continue through the York Rite, they find a system of study that focuses initially on Jewish and later very specifically on Christian teaching. Those who continue through the Scottish Rite find a broad understanding through the study of comparative religion encompassing many myths and teachings from throughout history.

Having gone through all three, as a Freemason I have found these studies to be enlightening and informative. As a Christian, I have found these studies to be invaluable in better understanding Christianity in the framework of our history. And my involvement in Freemasonry has strengthened my Christian walk and my commitment to my belief in Christian teaching and Christian values.
 
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O.F.F.

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What neurotic, spiritually schizophrenic behavior! Why do you get so obsessed with all these posts? Don't you ever take a break to do any REAL pastoral work? Apparently being a Masonic pastor is your priority. I would HATE to have a pastor who I later found out to be an active Mason, but to learn that he spends as much time as YOU DO defending it on "Christian" grounds, would drive me to start a movement to drive HIM out of our church! ANY PASTOR WHO WOULD DEFEND FREEMASONRY ON CHRISTIAN GROUNDS IS A DECEIVER AT ODDS WITH THE GOSPEL AND THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST!!!

Skip has accurately identified your symptoms, as I highlight below, with much emphasis:


Wayne completely, and entirely, disregards our methodology in attacking Freemasonry from a biblical perspective; which is the objective written Word of God (the Holy Bible) as compared to Grand Lodge issued Masonic literature/documentation, buttressed by quotations from well-known Masonic authors.

If you really wanted to match our approach, you simply need to start with Grand Lodge documentation, NOT your own PRESUPPOSITIONS; then either leave it at that, and/or support it with 'like' information from prominent Masonic authors' comments substantiating your claims. Keeping in mind, Grand Lodge documentation -- from a variety of U.S. jurisdictions -- always comes first; and supersedes popular Masonic opinion. That has not been your approach EVER! And I doubt that it ever will, since NO Grand Lodge in the U.S. declares Freemasonry to be as inextricably "Christian" as you do; to include your own Grand Lodge of South Carolina. And, you KNOW the email I got from your very own Grand Master, about its acceptance of ALL faiths, proves it!

But YOU claim to be a pastor, while posting such things as:

Wayne said:
by faith we are justified, accepted, and finally saved. (Post 1)
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As if true saints have to wait; as Skip pointed out.


As if one has to maintain a "Masonic profession" to make it to heaven, rather than faith in Jesus Christ; as Skip pointed out.


As if it's the furniture of the lodge that brings a man from darkness to light. And Masons are set above non-Masons; as Skip pointed out.

Wayne said:
Thus the Master Mason represents a man under the Christian doctrine, saved from the grave of iniquity hand raised to the life and grace of salvation. (Post 1)
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As if this pertains to every Master Mason, including the Buddhists, the Hindu, and the Muslims.

Wayne said:
and we, as a set of religious brethren, assembling in the true faith, commemorate the proclamations of the Baptist. (Post 2)
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As if ALL Masons assemble in the 'true faith' when assembled in the lodge.

Wayne said:
We never suffer any religious disputes in our lodge, and as Masons, we are members of the universal church, not narrowed to a sect. (Post 2)
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Finally you post something I've been telling YOU all along. And, as Skip said, I think you just destroyed your "Masonry isn't a religion" argument. And we already know Masons don't want to bring up 'other' religions in the lodge, as the competition might prove uncomfortable.

Wayne said:
In short, our present dark estate, it would seem, can never acquire that pure unbeclouded economy which shall emancipate man from all allusions and emblematical rites. (Post 2)
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As if ALL men are chained to 'allusions and emblematical rites' and do not know the truth; as Skip pointed out. I could go on, but your heretical posts sicken me.


As if Masonry is the true Christian religion; as Skip pointed out.

Wayne said:
I answer unhesitatingly that such a declaration from a candidate is to be taken in its broadest sense, and to mean that his belief in God is such a belief as has entered his heart and prepared him to be made a Mason. (Post 10, CO Proceedings)
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I agree with Skip; I can see why you liked that one. How one could think that God would call anyone to be a Mason is beyond belief. By the way, let me reiterate his question to you, since you deliberately ignored it. What offices do you hold in your lodge? If you think God called you there, what exactly are you doing (inside the lodge) to further it; besides placing a cloak of Christianity over it (outside the lodge)?


What's most incredible is that you actually believe readers here think your defense of the Masonic Order is sound, and that you are a genuine "Christian" pastor.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Really? Then let's get REAL monitorial, with "literature/documentation."

The rituals are saturated with Bible content. Any Mason familiar with the Bible can’t miss it. These are all straight from the current Ahiman Rezon:



OPENING PRAYER

Most holy and glorious Lord God, the great Architect of the Universe, the Giver of all good gifts and graces! (James 1:17) Thou hast promised that "where two or three are gathered together in Thy name Thou wilt be in the midst of them and bless them." (Matthew 18:20)


CLOSING PRAYER

Supreme Architect of the Universe! Accept our humble thanks for the many mercies and blessings which Thy bounty has conferred on us, (2 Corinthians 9:5)
and especially for this friendly and social intercourse. Pardon, we beseech Thee, whatever Thou hast seen amiss in us since we have been together, (James 4:3) and continue to us Thy presence, protection, and blessing.


BENEDICTION AT CLOSING

May the blessing of Heaven rest upon us and all regular Masons! May brotherly love prevail, (Hebrews 13:1) and every moral and social virtue cement us!

ENTRY UPON THE 1ST DEGREE

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.--Psalm CXXXIII[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/font]



Our Institution is said to be supported, by WISDOM, STRENGTH and BEAUTY; because it is necessary there should be wisdom to contrive, strength to support and beauty to adorn, all great and important undertakings. Its dimensions are unlimited, and its covering no less than the canopy of heaven. (Isaiah 40:22)
To this object the Mason's mind is continually directed, and thither he hopes at last to arrive by the aid of the theological ladder, which Jacob, in his vision, saw ascending from earth to heaven; (Gen. 28:10-22) the three principal rounds of which are denominated FAITH, HOPE and CHARITY, (1 Cor. 13:13) and which admonish us to have faith in God, (Mark 11:22, 1 Pet. 1:21) hope in immortality, (1 Cor. 15:54) and charity to all mankind. (Gal. 6:10)


ENTRY UPON THE SECOND DEGREE

Thus he shewed me: and, behold, the LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumb-line, with a plumb-line in his hand.
And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumb-line. Then said the LORD, Behold, I will set a plumb-line in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more.--Amos VII, 7,8.[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/font]


CHARGE AT CLOSING

Let the world observe how Masons love one another. (1 John 4:7) These generous principles are to extend further. Every human being has a claim upon your kind offices. Do good unto all. Recommend it more especially "to the household of the faithful." (Galatians 6:10)
By diligence in the duties of your respective callings; by liberal benevolence and diffusive charity; by constancy and fidelity in your friendships, discover the beneficial and happy effects of this ancient and honorable Institution. Let it not be supposed that you have here labored in vain (1 Cor. 15:54) and spent your strength for naught; for your work is with the Lord and your recompense with God. (Ruth 2:12)

Finally, brethren, be ye all of one mind; live in peace, and may the God of love and peace delight to dwell with and bless you! (2 Cor. 13:11)

ENTRY UPON THIRD DEGREE


Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.--Ecclesiastes XII, 1-7.

PRAYER AT RAISING


Thou, O God! knowest our down-sitting and our uprising, and understandest our thought afar off. . .(Psalm 139:2, Job 14:1-11, Isa. 45:17 )


BENEDICTION AT THE LAYING OF A CORNER STONE

Glory be to God on High, and on earth peace, good will toward men! (Luke 2:14)
O Lord, we most heartily beseech Thee with Thy favor to behold and bless this assemblage. Pour down Thy mercies, like the dew that falls upon the mountains, (Psa. 133:3) upon Thy servants engaged in the solemn ceremonies of this day. Bless, we pray Thee, all the workmen who shall be engaged in the erection of this edifice; keep them from all forms of accident and harm, and grant them health and prosperity while they live. And finally, we pray that when our earthly toils and labors are ended we may all, through Thy mercy, wisdom and forgiveness, attain everlasting joy (Isa. 35:10) and felicity in the mansions prepared for us (John 14:2-3) in that temple not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Amen. (2 Cor. 5:1)

AT THE DEDICATION OF A MASONIC HALL

In the name of the Great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry.

INVOCATION AT DEDICATION OF A MASONIC HALL

And may the Lord, the giver of every good and perfect gift, (James 1:17)
bless the brethren here assembled, in all their lawful undertakings, and grant to each one of them in needful supply, the Corn of nourishment, the Wine of refreshment, and the Oil of joy. Amen. (CORN, WINE, AND OIL: Deu. 7:13, 11:14, 14:23, 18:4, 28:51, 2 Chr. 31:5, 32:28, Neh. 5:11, 13:5, 13:12, Hosea 2:8, 2:22, Joel 1:10, Haggai 1:11; OIL OF JOY: Isaiah 61:3)

BENEDICTION AT FUNERAL

Now may the presence, comfort and strength of our Heavenly Father and the peace that passeth all understanding (Philippians 4:7) abide with us all, now and always. AMEN.

INVOCATION AT LODGE OF SORROW

"Almighty and Eternal God, (Deu. 33:27) in Whom we live, and move, and have our being, (Acts 17:28) we pray that Thou will grant each of us health, happiness, and well being in the coming year. We hold the hope that each of us and all our Brothers whom we hold dear, will be present when we close this Lodge of Sorrow at the end of its appointed time. But should it be your will to call for workmen from among our ranks, then help those remaining to see the Wisdom in Your choice. (Chaplain may add further words as he sees fit.) AMEN"
 
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Rev Wayne

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Just after the reading of Psalm 133 in the EA ritual, we find:


The following passage of Scripture is here used: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be Light; and there was Light. (AR, p. 71)
But what mind can conceive, or what pen portray, that terrible convulsion of nature, that awful disentanglement of its elements, which must have accompanied the Divine command, "Let there be Light!" The attempt to describe it would be a presumptuous task. We feel, when we meditate on the subject, that stillness and silence must have fled before the Almighty Voice, and the earth itself have trembled in its new existence, when the gloomy pall of darkness was rolled as a curtain from the face of nature. (p. 72)
When at last your trembling soul stands naked and alone before the Great Judgment, may it be your portion to hear from Him who is the Judge Supreme: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, enter now into the joys of the Lord." (p. 76)
The Operative Masons at Jerusalem, from whom we date our origin, were occupied in the construction of an earthly and material temple, to be dedicated to the service and worship of God--a house in which the mighty Jehovah was to dwell visibly by the Shekinah, and whence He was by Urim and Thummim, to send forth His oracles for the government and direction of His chosen people.
The Speculative Mason is engaged in the construction of a spiritual temple in his heart, pure and spotless, fit for the dwelling place of Him who is the author of purity; where God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth, and whence every evil thought and unruly passion are to be banished, as the sinner and the Gentile were excluded from the sanctuary of the Jewish Temple.
In the symbolic language of Masonry, therefore, the twenty-four inch gauge is a symbol of time well employed; the common gavel, of the purification of the heart. (p. 79-80)
Various passages of Scripture are referred to in this section as elucidating the traditions of Masonry on the subject of the Temple.
And we will cut wood out of Lebanon, as much as thou shalt need; and we will bring it to thee in floats by sea to Joppa; and thou shalt carry it up to Jeruslem.--2 Chron. II, 16. (p. 82)
And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither; so that there was neither hammer, nor axe, nor any tool of iron heard in the house while it was in building.--1 Kings VI, 7. (p. 83)
Josephus says, "The whole structure of the Temple was made with great skill, of polished stones, and those laid together so very harmoniously and smoothly, that there appeared to the spectators no sign of any hammer or any other instrument of architecture, but as if, without any use of them, the entire materials had naturally united themselves together, so that the agreement of one part with another seemed rather to have been natural, than to have arisen from the force of tools upon them." (p. 83)
Now this was the manner in former time in Israel governing redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbor; and this was a testimony in Israel.--Ruth IV, 7 (p. 84)
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.--Matthew VII, 7. (p. 84)
The idea, that the Lodge is a symbol of the world, is still carried out. It was the belief of the ancients that the heavens, or the roof of the world, was supported by pillars. By these pillars, some suppose that the mountains are alluded; but in reference to a passage in Job XXVI, 11, where it is said "The pillars of heaven tremble," Noyes thinks that "it is more probable that heaven is represented as an immense edifice, supported on lofty columns, like a temple." (p. 91)
P. 92 (entire page) is an artist's depiction of Jacob's ladder as described in his dream. I've tried to locate information about the source of the picture but to no avail. A small inscription of a name can be seen in the lower right, and magnified, it appears to be "Jecorhous," but an internet search produced no result.
A Lodge is situated due east and west, because, when Moses crossed the Red Sea, being pursued by Pharaoh and his host, he erected on the other side, by divine command, a tabernacle, which he placed due east and west, to receive the first rays of the rising sun, and to commemorate that mighty east wind by which their miraculous deliverance was effected. This tabernacle was an exact pattern of King Solomon's Temple, of which every Lodge is a representation, and it is, or ought, therefore, to be placed due east and west. (p. 99-100)
In six days God created the heavens and the earth, and rested upon the seventh day; the seventh, therefore, our ancient brethren consecrated as a day of rest from their labors; thereby enjoying frequent opportunities to contemplate the glorious works of creation, and to adore their great Creator. (p. 114)
For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece; and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.--1 Kings VII, 15. (p. 114)
Also he made before the house two pillars of thirty and five cubits high, and the chapiter that was on the top of each of them was five cubits.--2 Chron. III, 15. (p. 114)
And he made two chapiters of of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars; the height of the chapiter three cubits; the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits.--1 Kings VII, 16. (p. 114)
The height of the one pillar was eighteen cubits, and the chapiter upon it was brass; and the height of the chapiter three cubits; and the wreathen work, and pomegranates upon the chapiter around about, all of brass; and like unto these had the second pillar with wreathen work.--2 Kings XXV, 16. (p. 114)
The discrepancy as to the height of the pillars as given in the book of Kings and in Chronicles is to be reconciled by supposing that in the book of Kings the pillars are spoken of separately, and that in Chronicles their aggregate height is calculated; and the reason that in this latter book their united height is placed at 35 cubits, instead of 36, which would be the double of 18, is because they are there measured as they appear with the chapiters upon them. Now half a cubit of each pillar was concealed in what Dr. Lightfoot calls "the hole of the chapiter," that is, half a cubit's depth of the lower edge of the chapiter covered the top of the pillar, making each pillar apparently only 17 1/2 cubits high, or the two, 35 cubits, as laid down in the book of Chronicles.
In a similar way we reconcile the difference as to the height of the chapiters. In 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles the chapiters are said to be five cubits high, while in 2 Kings their height is described as being only three cubits. But it will be noticed that it immediately follows in the same place, that "there was a wreathen work and pomegranates upon the chapiter around about." Now the expression is conclusive that the height of the chapiters was estimated exclusive and independent of the wreathen work round about them, which was two cubits more, and this added to the three cubits of the chapiter proper, will make the five cubits spoken of in all other parts of Scripture. (p. 114-16)
Here a symbol of Plenty is introduced, and proper explanations are given as to the proper answers to the following questions:
What does it denote?
How was it represented?
Why was it instituted?

The passages of Scripture which are referred to in this part of the section will be found in Judges XII, 1-6. The Vulgate version gives a periphrastic translation of a part of the 6th verse, as follows: "Say, therefore, Shibboleth, which being interpreted is an ear of corn." the same word in Hebrew signifies a rapid stream of water, from the root SHaBaL, to flow copiously. The too common error of speaking, in this part of the ritual, of a "water-ford" instead of a "water-fall," which is the correct word, must be carefully avoided. A water-fall is an emblem of plenty, because it indicates an abundance of water. A water-ford, for the converse reason, is, if any symbol at all, a symbol of scarcity. (p. 127-28)
Immediately following the monitorial degree work, is a section detailing the qualities of a Mason, with this description:
As the Bible is the first Great Light presented to a candidate, the following quotations from that inspired book are recommended to his previous perusal:

"Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
"He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
"He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbor, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbor.
"In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoreth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own heart, and changeth not.
"He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent." Psalm XV.
"Who shall ascend into the hills of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
He that hath clean hands and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully."--Psalm XXIV, 3, 4.
"What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
"Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
"Depart from evil and do good; seek peace, and pursue it."--Psalm XXXIV, 12-14.
Then let the candidate prepare himself to say:
"I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue; I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me."--Psalm XXXIX, 1.
"I will wash mine hands in innocency; so will I compass thine altar, O Lord."--Psalm XXVI, 6.


Funny thing, any time this posts, you guys kinda fold, and start hemming and hawing about "out of context," without ever getting down to any specifics.
 
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Rev Wayne

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As for your little snip-snap, out of context spot quoting and spin jobs to boot, it's nothing new, anybody can do that stuff. Observe, for example, what happens when I do the same thing with YOUR posts:

it's the furniture of the lodge that brings a man from darkness to light.
Click to expand...
ALL Masons assemble in the 'true faith' when assembled in the lodge
Click to expand...
.

Masonry is the true Christian religion; as Skip pointed out.
Click to expand...
the Masonic Order is sound
Click to expand...
the Holy Spirit is fine with your stubborn persistence
Click to expand...
you were really led by the Holy Spirit
Click to expand...

And didn't you used to favor doing this with ellipsis? I can see why you would, that kind of foppery can really be fun:

I am. . . in favor of your defense of Freemasonry
Click to expand...
I will continue to. . . support biblical heresy.
Click to expand...

we will gladly welcome . . . repeated falsification of the biblical record,
Click to expand...
promotion of a biblical lie. . . was . . .the intent of my post
Click to expand...

The real humor, though, is watching the incredible lengths you go to, turning every post into a foaming at the mouth tirade, with huge sections of bold print, underline, and screaming in full caps, while loudly applying the label of "obsession."

If you really had an argument, wouldn't it be able to speak for itself without all your "help?"
 
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ChristianMasonJim

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O.F.F. said:
Wayne completely, and entirely, disregards our methodology in attacking Freemasonry from a biblical perspective;
Click to expand...
The anti-Mason completely, and entirely, disregards whatever a Freemason states despite all evidence presented, despite all personal experience described, despite all logical, truthful, and honest discussion made, the anti-Mason disregards it all. And this is exactly why reasonable debate can never occur on forums like this, because, despite all evidence to the contrary, to the anti-Mason, it is a foregone conclusion that Freemasonry is not compatible with Christianity, and to the anti-Mason, a Freemason cannot be a Christian.

I continue to wait for any anti-Mason to show how my involvement in Freemasonry is causing me to stumble in my Christian walk, or is causing others to stumble in theirs.
 
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Rev Wayne

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That's the way it's always been, Jim, "reasonable debate" is not what they seek. They have a compulsion, whatever the reason for it, that drives them and they yield themselves to it. They freely accuse me here of "obsession," when the obsession is clearly their own. Quite some time ago, I committed to speaking mainly in response to accusations or challenges made by antimasons. With the exception of the Perfect Ashlar thread, I have followed that pattern since committing to it. Skip has chosen to make the Perfect Ashlar thread his own personal obsession, Mike apparently wishes to do the same with this thread. Not surprising, since the thread (or more accurately, the main thread from which it is an offshoot) began in response to one of his challenges. Strange, too, is the fact that a thread whose premise is fairly benign would draw such vitriolic responses, which are made not because of any bold claims, but simply by its presence here on this forum. Naturally, they keep inserting their own premises into it as the imaginary intent, but all these two threads on "biblical content/Christian interpretation" ever stated as their design, was to simply show where such content can be found in Masonry. Yet, even with that low-on-the-totem-pole aim, every attempt has been made to up the ante, by claiming it is meant to "declare Freemasonry to be as inextricably Christian," which is a bizarre statement in light of the fact that (1) no claims about the material have been made since the opening post; and (2) no such claim as this was made even in the OP.

All I was invited to do was to start a thread showing the places where such content can be found, and "let's talk about it." Clearly the "talk about it" part was simply a ruse to get me to post it so they can re-frame it, snip-quote it for out-of-context deconstruction of it, and otherwise finding ways to vilify even the most straightforward references to what is the heart of Masonry, its biblical content.
 
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ChristianMasonJim

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What you describe is precisely what I see from almost every anti-Mason I have encountered. The "discussions" are typically no more than their baiting, waiting for any sign of weakness or any minor slip-up so they can pounce with ferocity.

As you have obviously seen, I have stepped back from these "discussions" for a while, because frankly, it has been refreshing for me to actually do other things than having to defend my beliefs, despite my profession of Faith. I had hoped that by showing that a Christian can approach Freemasonry from a Godly and discerning way that Freemasonry could, in fact, improve one's relationship with Christ, but that has been summarily rejected.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Been there, done that. When I saw it went nowhere as far as convincing them of anything, I simply turned them over to the Lord and decided to stick with them toe to toe, but mostly taking a defensive stance, since their opposition pretty much dictates it anyway. So then they decide to take that and use it as a pretense to start preaching about Christian behavior, as if they actually knew something about it. Makes you wanna go, "Where in the world were you all that time when I was doing that?"
 
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ChristianMasonJim

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I continue to question the anti-Masonic belief that a person cannot be a Christian if he is a Freemason--a belief that Skip clearly stated. I know I'm preaching to the choir on this, but still, it makes me question their understanding of Salvation through Christ. I never claimed to be a Biblical scholar or expert, but you certainly don't need to be one to understand that when you are saved by Grace through Christ, you are saved--period. Short of denouncing Christ (which I have never done) that cannot be taken away. Of course they would likely argue that "true" Salvation never occurred in the first place. To which I would reply that my Salvation came early, I have frequently recommitted myself to Christ, and my faith in Christ has been evidenced in my life for many, many years. They are just unwilling to accept that a person can be discerning and honest in what he does as a Christian.
 
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Rev Wayne said:
Just after the reading of Psalm 133 in the EA ritual, we find:
Click to expand...
Are you stating that what follows in your note is actually part of the ritual?

Funny thing, any time this posts, you guys kinda fold, and start hemming and hawing about "out of context," without ever getting down to any specifics.
Click to expand...
What, exactly is your point? If you are trying to state that Masonic rituals include Biblical verses, we already knew that. The Book of Mormon contains about 25,000 verses directly copied from the KJV, but that doesn't make it Scripture or make Mormonism a Christian religion, or even one with Christian roots. It does make the book a fake and fraud, though.

At any rate, the point you are making eludes me. Cordially, Skip.
 
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The attitudes expressed by them here are typical, not only of anti-masonry, but of small, mostly independent churches, who are defined mostly by the things they are against, than anything else. If Freemasonry were no longer around, they would be lost until they found some other object for their animosity. Not only are they anti-masonry, it's easy to see from the way they say "seminary-educated," that they prefer ignorant pastors, which is the main reason every time they come across one, they try to drag him down to their level, or make him appear beneath their contempt.
 
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Now, I've seen the "inestimable gift of God to man" quote before, as well as the "rule and guide for his faith and practice," but I think this is a first for the combination of the two.


As to religion, it is required that a petitioner believe in God and in Immortality; that he recognizes the Holy Bible as the rule and guide of his faith. (Lodge System of Masonic Education, NC)
Click to expand...
This is a new wrinkle for me, too. Apparently this states that in NC, it is a requirement that a petitioner recognize the Holy BIble as the rule and guide of his faith. In other words, before taking a single degree, he has to profess the Holy Bible to be the rule and guide of his faith.

 
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