Biases

Always in His Presence · Jan 11, 2025

The Liturgist said:
That’s basically what I said. As long as you are not asserting the Bible is a person of the Holy Trinity or God or uncreated, in which case I believe that would be a violation of the CF.com Statement of Faith for Christian Only Forums.

I don't have the ability to make it any clearer.

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 11, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
No sir - that is Holy Scripture - Have you not read the Gospel of St. John?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (LOGOS), and the Word (LOGOS) was with God, and the Word (LOGOS) was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 1 :: King James Version (KJV)

John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

www.blueletterbible.org

John 1:1 John 1:1 In the beginning was the spoken Word, and the spoken Word was with God, and the spoken Word was God.

The verse does not say "In the beginning was the holy scriptures, and the holy scriptures was with God, and the holy scriptures was God. "

Furthermore John 1:14 And the spoken Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

The Liturgist · Jan 11, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
I don't have the ability to make it any clearer.

I’m not understanding what you are saying. I think we should have @MarkRohfrietsch intermediate here, because obviously if John 1:1-18 is being used exclusively to refer to Scripture and not to Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, that directly contradicts the Nicene Creed.

The Liturgist · Jan 11, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
It is astounding to me that anybody can take John 1:1-18 as a discussion about the holy scriptures instead of a discussion about our Lord and God, Jesus Christ. John 1:1 and John 1:14 make the identity of "the Word" absolutely clear, it is Jesus who was made flesh and dwelt among us. I am sure that what causes this terrible error - which is truly idolatry - is equating the holy scriptures with "the Word". It is terrible to make this identity.

I agree, there is a huge problem here and it is deeply troubling. I can understand, by extension, saying that Scripture is the word of God in the sense that it reveals Christ in the same way that Christ reveals the Father, but to say that the Scriptures are uncreated and are God in and of themselves is an extreme view, similiar to the Sikh view of the Guru Granth Sahib or the view of some Muslims that the Quran is uncreated. It was certainly not the view of any historical Protestant theologians, and I’ve only encountered people using John 1:1-18 in reference to the Scriptures on a very few occasions.

The Liturgist · Jan 11, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
No sir - that is Holy Scripture - Have you not read the Gospel of St. John?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (LOGOS), and the Word (LOGOS) was with God, and the Word (LOGOS) was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

John 1 :: King James Version (KJV)

John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

www.blueletterbible.org

So how does Scripture have a male gender identity?

Also how do you reconcile your position with the Nicene Creed / Christian Forums Statement of Faith?

ViaCrucis · Jan 11, 2025

Eternally Grateful said:
Scripture is God.

That is blasphemy, idolatry, and rank heresy.

John 1:1 is about Jesus Christ, not Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jan 11, 2025

Logos means so much more than what the English word "word" entails; far more than spoken or written. Logos is thought, reason, discourse, what is spoken.

Jesus is God's Logos, He is the Divine Word through which all things exist and by which all things continue to exist. Jesus is what God says; and the Scriptures do (because they are about Jesus Christ) declare this same Word to us (the Word who was in the beginning and who became flesh in Mary's womb); and for this reason the Scriptures are rightly called the word of God; for God is their ultimate source and authority.

But I do not worship ink and paper. I worship the Virgin-born Carpenter from Nazareth, because He is God, the Eternal and Immutable and Ineffable One. To worship the Bible would be to worship the created rather than the Creator, and that is blatant idolatry.

To quote Dr. Luther, "We believe the Scripture's for Christ's sake, we do not believe in Christ for Scripture's sake"; and also: we look to the Scriptures because they are as the manger which cradled the Christ-Child. The Bible is about Jesus, without Jesus the Bible is just moth and rust. But because of Jesus, the Scriptures are alive, the living written word of God which, by the power of the Holy Spirit, brings fresh new life to our hearts, to believe and trust in Christ and the Gospel of our salvation in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

Eternally Grateful · Jan 11, 2025

ARBITER01 said:
Let's take a step back, shall we?

Do let's.

Scripture is not an extension of the GODHEAD. It does have the very imprint of The Holy Spirit within and behind those words we read, but it of itself is not GOD.

It still requires The Holy Spirit to provide the quickening to our human spirit when we read it, so no, it is not self edifying, and not GOD.

You can

I will take a step forward. And know the word of God is his word to us. And I can trust it explicitly

Eternally Grateful · Jan 11, 2025

ViaCrucis said:
That is blasphemy, idolatry, and rank heresy.

John 1:1 is about Jesus Christ, not Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus Christ is the word. And he is God

smh

ViaCrucis · Jan 11, 2025

Eternally Grateful said:
Jesus Christ is the word. And he is God

smh

Yes, Jesus Christ is the Divine Uncreated Logos, the Eternal Son and Word of the Father; He is God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God. Eternally Begotten of the Father, of the Father's own Being.

"Word" here doesn't mean the Bible, it means the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

-CrytoLutheran

Always in His Presence · Jan 11, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

The more you post - the more I get the impression that, well, something is lacking.

Have you not read John?

John 14:9 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Always in His Presence · Jan 11, 2025

The Liturgist said:
So how does Scripture have a male gender identity?

Also how do you reconcile your position with the Nicene Creed / Christian Forums Statement of Faith?

I have already explained as clearly as I possibly can - the conundrum is not on my end, but yours.

You have brought up the Nicene Creed now five times -

What part of John 1 - is opposed to the Nicene creed? What on earth are you referring to?

This conversation clearly shows the difference in Theology and Bible study. We are speaking two different languages.

ARBITER01 · Jan 11, 2025

Eternally Grateful said:
You can

I will take a step forward. And know the word of God is his word to us. And I can trust it explicitly

What you said here is true, what you said about scripture being GOD is untrue.

We must have The Holy Spirit inside of us to correctly understand scriptural truth. Scripture is not self evident, hence why atheists can read it and be completely wrong. Hence also, why you see a lot of people on this site speak wrongful things using scripture, they do not have The Holy Spirit inside of them,.... no matter how much they say they do.

Always in His Presence · Jan 11, 2025

The Liturgist said:
I’m not understanding what you are saying. I think we should have @MarkRohfrietsch intermediate here, because obviously if John 1:1-18 is being used exclusively to refer to Scripture and not to Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, that directly contradicts the Nicene Creed.

Feel free because I've said it numerous times and I'll state it again as clearly as I possibly can.

Jesus Christ is the Word becoming flesh. John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Jesus Christ - born of a virgin became 100% Man and 100% God in physical form.

Jesus Christ is THE ONLY way to the Father.

Holy Scripture is the manifest expression of the will of God. It is without error, nor does it need anything added.

Always in His Presence · Jan 11, 2025

The Liturgist said:
That’s basically what I said. As long as you are not asserting the Bible is a person of the Holy Trinity or God or uncreated, in which case I believe that would be a violation of the CF.com Statement of Faith for Christian Only Forums.

Where did I say that? From what statement are you extrapolating that thought from>

The Liturgist · Jan 12, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Where did I say that? From what statement are you extrapolating that thought from>

I was more worried about your agreement with another member who said that, but you have assuaged my concerns, which pleases me.

The Liturgist · Jan 12, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Jesus Christ is the Word becoming flesh. John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Jesus Christ - born of a virgin became 100% Man and 100% God in physical form.

Jesus Christ is THE ONLY way to the Father.

Holy Scripture is the manifest expression of the will of God. It is without error, nor does it need anything added.

Amen, amen, amen, I believe this is true. Obviously the issue was with the other member who said “Scripture is God.”

Now to quote something from the Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware that I suspect you my friend and our friend @ViaCrucis might possibly agree with me to be, at least in part, edifying:

“As we read the Bible, we are all the time gathering information, wrestling with the sense ofobscure sentences, comparing and analyzing. But this is secondary. The real purpose of Bible study is much more than this - to feed our love for Christ, to kindle our hearts into prayer, and to provide us with guidance in our personal life. The study of words should give place to an immediate dialogue with the living Word himself. 'Whenever you read the Gospel,' says St Tikhon of Zadonsk, 'Christ himself is speaking to you. And while you read, you are praying and talking with him.'”

I myself very much feel reading Scripture, particularly the four Gospels, although the unified Gospel message Is distributed throughout inspired Scripture, I feel as though I am learning directly from Christ my Lord and Savior, God Incarnate.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 12, 2025

The Liturgist said:
I’m not understanding what you are saying. I think we should have @MarkRohfrietsch intermediate here, because obviously if John 1:1-18 is being used exclusively to refer to Scripture and not to Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, that directly contradicts the Nicene Creed.

It is clearly NOT speaking about Scripture, but of our Lord Jesus Christ. How does God express and bring about His will?; read Genesis, it is always by His word. It is no coincidence that the Old Testament begins with God effecting His will by speaking words and that the new testament begins the same way, with John at the beginning of the New Testament, expressing how God's will regarding the incarnation and the gift of His Son came and dwelled among us via God's "words". Read Genesis Chapter 1 beginning at the 3rd verse; clearly there was nothing without God speaking, and through speaking everything came about, according to His Will. Yes, Scripture is also God's word, for as Scripture itself tells us "the prophets spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit", so God speaking through the prophets. Scripture is not God, Scripture is God's word, therefore it is Holy, but treating it as God is idolatry and blasphemy:

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Eternally Grateful · Jan 12, 2025

ViaCrucis said:
Yes, Jesus Christ is the Divine Uncreated Logos, the Eternal Son and Word of the Father; He is God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God. Eternally Begotten of the Father, of the Father's own Being.

"Word" here doesn't mean the Bible, it means the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

-CrytoLutheran

Lol

The bible is the spoken word..

Eternally Grateful · Jan 12, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
I have already explained as clearly as I possibly can - the conundrum is not on my end, but yours.

You have brought up the Nicene Creed now five times -

What part of John 1 - is opposed to the Nicene creed? What on earth are you referring to?

This conversation clearly shows the difference in Theology and Bible study. We are speaking two different languages.

The problem is we should be focused on the inspired word. Not som creed written by men (not inspired)

some people seem to hold creeds of men higher than the word (its funny as the jews did the same thing. Christ fought this when he walked the earth)

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