Better to offend or be politically correct?

dms1972 · Feb 11, 2020

It would depend on our station somewhat whether its our place to speak out. For example if we are talking about a workplace, there normally is someone who has some oversight over others at some level, its their job to deal with wrongdoing within their sphere. Sometimes they don't do that when they should. I think we should let the appropriate people take the needed action, but it may be necessary to draw attention to things sometimes, such as if it seems like someone might be misappropriating funds. But we can't just wade in shouting accusations. We should rather ask some questions - 'why are these accounts short?', or whatever is appropriate to what is amiss.

dms1972 · Feb 11, 2020

Curtis.Hilliker said:
I don’t see child abuse, and I don’t agree with his view on cancer. But his offensive evangelism certainly works.

I think what he says about not treating someone who is ill because of chastening is wrong also. It is a doctors, surgeons, or nurses job to care, administer medications, or assist healing, not in my opinion to try and determine why (other than medically - like they caught a virus) a person is sick.

Some treatments for cancer are not pleasant, the treatment itself may be chastening. To suggest people should not be given treatment because they are being chastised by the Lord is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Its possible they may not get better if they are stubborn and unrepentant, and because nature may not be on the job so to speak, but if Ray Comfort is saying they should not receive care he is wrong. Physicians assist nature to do its job. James says the prayer of faith will make the sick person well, and if they have sinned they will be forgiven.

Quartermaine · Feb 11, 2020

Curtis.Hilliker said:
I don’t see child abuse,

did you even look?

and I don’t agree with his view on cancer. But his offensive evangelism certainly works.

so pushing and bullying people to not seek treatment for cancer is a good thing?

BroRoyVa79 · Feb 11, 2020

Quartermaine said:
you could start in his book Cults, Sects and Questions

"You should never consult a doctor or go to a hospital for treatment, because you would be interfering with the work of God in your life. If Cancer is the chastening tool of God, then doctors who are fighting cancer are fighting against the work of God. If a preacher or a Christian believes the sickness is a means of chastening, then he should never pray for relief from the sickness, but rather pray that the cancer will continue to grow until the chastening is completed." Ray Comfort More Than Just Comfort: An Answer to Cancer

I've watched a few Ray Comfort videos so I'm not an apologist for him, but I went out searching for this information and what I found is a lot of atheist and secular material claiming Ray Comfort said these things. I find that suspect.

So have you read these books, because More Than Just Comfort: An Answer to Cancer was supposedly written (or spoken, or recorded) in 1979 and nothing shows up on Amazon, Google book list, etc. about it. I even found an atheist group on Reddit admitting to this and also pointing out that Ray said the quote was taken out of context and that he explained that he was dealing with people who believed they received cancer from God as a punishment and that logically if they believed that then they shouldn't seek treatment until God finished teaching these people His lesson.

Nobody can provide an ISBN number for the book to verify if this is quote mined, which I suspect it is. When I found a list of his books on Rationalwiki, they don't list an ISBN number for More than Just Comfort, neither do they list Cults, Sects, and Questions as one of his published books, have you read that? Nor is the latter listed on Amazon, Google Book lists, etc.

This doesn't mean he didn't write the books. He could have and they're out of print, but it just makes it more suspicious that these quotes are only on atheist, secular sites, and anti-Christian sites.

I found a short sermon by him titled More than Just Comfort on Soundcloud, where he shares his testimony and gives a sermon. But it's dated two years ago, not late 70's. Granted it could've been recently uploaded two years ago and is a recording from late 70's. Still, listening to it, skimming really, I heard nothing of the quote mentioned.

Even so, the man was 30 years old in 1979, he was born in 1949. Without any information on when he gave his life to the Lord, I can't say for certain, but we all start off somewhere theologically. Some of the things I thought 20 years ago theologically speaking, I realize now were a bit foolish at the time.

Trying to hold something against him from over 40 years ago without seeing if he actually said this, if you haven't read the books, or if his views haven't changed is a bit unfair to Ray and where he may stand on the issue now.

Ohorseman · Feb 11, 2020

It is my observation that Christians, men in particular, have become effeminate, as defined in the Biblical sense. They are overly concerned about being labeled insensitive or having to much toxic masculinity. I think many have gone weak. The purpose of my site is to encourage people, men and women, to be bold for the Lord and speak the truth, even if there are costs.

Make Straight His Paths

Curtis.Hilliker · Feb 11, 2020

Quartermaine said:
did you even look?

so pushing and bullying people to not seek treatment for cancer is a good thing?

No, but convicting people of their sin and leading them to Christ is.

ViaCrucis · Feb 11, 2020

Ohorseman said:
John the Baptist was not politically correct. Should we tell the truth, even if it costs us our heads? Or, should we water down the truth and play it safe?

I made some sequential art about John the Baptist and express my opinion about this. At this time, it seems to me that the church is more concerned about feelings than truth. Please weigh in on this with you recommendations.

makestraighthispaths.blogspot.com

"Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear." - Ephesians 4:29

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Feb 11, 2020

Ohorseman said:
It is my observation that Christians, men in particular, have become effeminate, as defined in the Biblical sense. They are overly concerned about being labeled insensitive or having to much toxic masculinity. I think many have gone weak. The purpose of my site is to encourage people, men and women, to be bold for the Lord and speak the truth, even if there are costs.

Make Straight His Paths

"My grace is sufficient for You, My power is made perfect in weakness." - 2 Corinthians 12:9

"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption," - 1 Corinthians 1:27-30

"So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be exploited, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." - Philippians 2:1-8

If being a Christian makes me "effeminate", then so be it. Jesus Christ is Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Feb 11, 2020

Curtis.Hilliker said:
He’s evangelized a ton of people, how about you? That’s not sarcasm btw.

He's preached at a lot of people. And he's said a lot of really stupid things. Whether or not that counts as "evangelism" is debatable.

-CryptoLutheran

Curtis.Hilliker · Feb 11, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
He's preached at a lot of people. And he's said a lot of really stupid things. Whether or not that counts as "evangelism" is debatable.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok I’ll bite; go ahead and explain to me how you have personally evangelized someone.

Ohorseman · Feb 11, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
If being a Christian makes me "effeminate", then so be it. Jesus Christ is Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

Don't say that man. Because of this:

1 Corinthians Chapter 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I get you point... but don't say that. We should not pick and choose the pleasant bible verses only. There is a Old Testament and a New Testament. They both matter. If someone living in sin, say so. If it offends them. It will not kill them. We live in a culture where victim hood is rewarded and the victim controls the narrative and so everybody is a victim often times at the expense of the truth. It's stupid. Christians should rise above that I hope.

ViaCrucis · Feb 11, 2020

Ohorseman said:
Don't say that man. Because of this:

1 Corinthians Chapter 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I get you point... but don't say that. We should not pick and choose the pleasant bible verses only. There is a Old Testament and a New Testament. They both matter. If someone living in sin, say so. If it offends them. It will not kill them. We live in a culture where victim hood is rewarded and the victim controls the narrative and so everybody is a victim often times at the expense of the truth. It's stupid. Christians should rise above that I hope.

The point I was making is that the whole notion of judging "manliness" by the standards of society is ridiculous. The biblical exhortations are not to be "manly" as defined by the world, but to be human toward one another in imitation of Christ--through weakness, service, kindness, compassion, dying to ourselves.

You've latched onto this word "effeminate" and have ran with it. You've made your own decisions about what is masculine and feminine, and have chosen certain qualities as masculine and others as feminine, and men who do not match your definitions are labeled as "effeminate".

And there are problems with this:

For one, the word in the text isn't "effeminate", it's μαλακοὶ (malakoi), the most literal translation of malakos is "soft". Thayer's says that, metaphorically, the word can refer to a catamite, a young male kept as a sexual companion in a pederastic relationship in antiquity. Without getting entirely too deep here, the very likely target of the Apostle's harsh warning are those engaged in pedastery,

Societal and cultural norms change. They are not static, but ever-changing and fickle. And so what you think of as "manly" isn't what was thought of as "manly" several hundred years ago, and it's not how it is seen in other parts of the world even today. So using your own subjective definition isn't meaningful.

My self-worth and identity isn't based upon stupid cultural definitions of what it means to "be a man". My self worth, my identity, is found in my baptism, in Christ--for having been crucified, dead, buried with Jesus, I am alive with Him. And so my life does not belong to me, I belong to Jesus, and as long as He is Lord the way I conduct myself in this life is going to be up to His commandments, in accordance with the teachings of the Christian faith. And that is going to mean speaking up against toxic masculinity, that is going to mean condemning toxic gender politics because such things are fundamentally antithetical to everything Christian.

The Christian life is a life lived at the cross. Not in the vainglory of worthless self-importance.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Feb 11, 2020

Curtis.Hilliker said:
Ok I’ll bite; go ahead and explain to me how you have personally evangelized someone.

I fail to see what this has to do with me. I don't recall claiming to be an evangelist. My criticism is with the idea that evangelism constitutes harassing people on the street and preaching at people to convert or burn in hell. That's not evangelism, that's just being obnoxious.

Evangelism is the proclamation of the Evangel, the Gospel, the Good News of what God has done through Jesus Christ for the whole world. If it isn't that, then it's not evangelism.

-CryptoLutheran

Quartermaine · Feb 11, 2020

BroRoyVa79 said:
I've watched a few Ray Comfort videos so I'm not an apologist for him, but I went out searching for this information and what I found is a lot of atheist and secular material claiming Ray Comfort said these things. I find that suspect.

So have you read these books, because More Than Just Comfort: An Answer to Cancer was supposedly written (or spoken, or recorded) in 1979 and nothing shows up on Amazon, Google book list, etc. about it. I even found an atheist group on Reddit admitting to this and also pointing out that Ray said the quote was taken out of context and that he explained that he was dealing with people who believed they received cancer from God as a punishment and that logically if they believed that then they shouldn't seek treatment until God finished teaching these people His lesson.

Nobody can provide an ISBN number for the book to verify if this is quote mined, which I suspect it is. When I found a list of his books on Rationalwiki, they don't list an ISBN number for More than Just Comfort, neither do they list Cults, Sects, and Questions as one of his published books, have you read that? Nor is the latter listed on Amazon, Google Book lists, etc.

This doesn't mean he didn't write the books. He could have and they're out of print, but it just makes it more suspicious that these quotes are only on atheist, secular sites, and anti-Christian sites.

I found a short sermon by him titled More than Just Comfort on Soundcloud, where he shares his testimony and gives a sermon. But it's dated two years ago, not late 70's. Granted it could've been recently uploaded two years ago and is a recording from late 70's. Still, listening to it, skimming really, I heard nothing of the quote mentioned.

Even so, the man was 30 years old in 1979, he was born in 1949. Without any information on when he gave his life to the Lord, I can't say for certain, but we all start off somewhere theologically. Some of the things I thought 20 years ago theologically speaking, I realize now were a bit foolish at the time.

Trying to hold something against him from over 40 years ago without seeing if he actually said this, if you haven't read the books, or if his views haven't changed is a bit unfair to Ray and where he may stand on the issue now.

and yet Comfort himself says he wrote the and published the book in 1979 on his facebook page. And he should know

BroRoyVa79 · Feb 11, 2020

Quartermaine said:
and yet Comfort himself says he wrote the and published the book in 1979 on his facebook page. And he should know

I did say it's possible he wrote it and it's out of print, but did you read it? Or are you quote-mining on the interwebs and did you see where he explained what he said?

thomas_t · Feb 12, 2020

Ohorseman said:
John the Baptist was not politically correct.

yes, when he spoke to believers. He was tough on the Pharisees.
Many Christians as of today practice judging& condemning when they talk about non-believers. But the latter ones should be invited - not insulted.
Paul clearly says 1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders?
So please don't judge outsiders. Even if they belong to groups terribly hated by many (Democrats, gays, environmentalists, scientists, women....).
Thomas

Ohorseman · Feb 12, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
The point I was making is that the whole notion of judging "manliness" by the standards of society is ridiculous. The biblical exhortations are not to be "manly" as defined by the world, but to be human toward one another in imitation of Christ--through weakness, service, kindness, compassion, dying to ourselves.

You've latched onto this word "effeminate" and have ran with it. You've made your own decisions about what is masculine and feminine, and have chosen certain qualities as masculine and others as feminine, and men who do not match your definitions are labeled as "effeminate".

And there are problems with this:

For one, the word in the text isn't "effeminate", it's μαλακοὶ (malakoi), the most literal translation of malakos is "soft". Thayer's says that, metaphorically, the word can refer to a catamite, a young male kept as a sexual companion in a pederastic relationship in antiquity. Without getting entirely too deep here, the very likely target of the Apostle's harsh warning are those engaged in pedastery,

Societal and cultural norms change. They are not static, but ever-changing and fickle. And so what you think of as "manly" isn't what was thought of as "manly" several hundred years ago, and it's not how it is seen in other parts of the world even today. So using your own subjective definition isn't meaningful.

My self-worth and identity isn't based upon stupid cultural definitions of what it means to "be a man". My self worth, my identity, is found in my baptism, in Christ--for having been crucified, dead, buried with Jesus, I am alive with Him. And so my life does not belong to me, I belong to Jesus, and as long as He is Lord the way I conduct myself in this life is going to be up to His commandments, in accordance with the teachings of the Christian faith. And that is going to mean speaking up against toxic masculinity, that is going to mean condemning toxic gender politics because such things are fundamentally antithetical to everything Christian.

The Christian life is a life lived at the cross. Not in the vainglory of worthless self-importance.

-CryptoLutheran

Well said.

thomas_t said:
yes, when he spoke to believers. He was tough on the Pharisees.
Many Christians as of today practice judging& condemning when they talk about non-believers. But the latter ones should be invited - not insulted.
Paul clearly says 1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders?
So please don't judge outsiders. Even if they belong to groups terribly hated by many (Democrats, gays, environmentalists, scientists, women....).
Thomas

I noticed that as well. John the Baptist's fiery preaching was directed to those that WENT OUT TO SEE HIM. So, they were interested, maybe open, to what he had to say.

PloverWing · Feb 12, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
The problem here is that the term "politically correct" is never really defined and so readers and commentators are left to define the term for themselves. The problem with that is that each of us has a slightly different understanding of the term that may not jive well with yours. The end result is that we're left battling over whether John the Baptist or anyone in particular in scripture bucked political correctness, a term undefined.

I agree: the term "politically correct" doesn't seem to be well-defined yet in this discussion.

When I use the term "politically correct", I mean that the speaker avoids stereotypes based on ethnicity, gender, religion, birthplace, etc., avoids insulting terms that refer to someone's ethnicity, gender, etc., and avoids telling hurtful jokes that make fun of someone's ethnicity, gender, etc. The speaker instead tries to use gender-inclusive language and tries to speak in ways that acknowledge (respectfully) that people can have different ethnicities, religions, and so on.

Some of this can be a difficult judgment call. Is a particular joke that makes fun of (say) women good-natured fun or offensive? Maybe it depends on who's telling the joke, or the audience, or the tone of voice. Out of that clash rose the term "politically correct": Person A is offended, and person B (who isn't offended) says that A shouldn't insist we be "politically correct" all the time. I would say that we should at least be making a good faith effort not to insult others with our jokes and our language.

@Ohorseman , when you advise us not to be politically correct, is this the setting you're thinking of? Or do you have a different definition in mind?

Ohorseman · Feb 18, 2020

PloverWing said:
I agree: the term "politically correct" doesn't seem to be well-defined yet in this discussion.

When I use the term "politically correct", I mean that the speaker avoids stereotypes based on ethnicity, gender, religion, birthplace, etc., avoids insulting terms that refer to someone's ethnicity, gender, etc., and avoids telling hurtful jokes that make fun of someone's ethnicity, gender, etc. The speaker instead tries to use gender-inclusive language and tries to speak in ways that acknowledge (respectfully) that people can have different ethnicities, religions, and so on.

Some of this can be a difficult judgment call. Is a particular joke that makes fun of (say) women good-natured fun or offensive? Maybe it depends on who's telling the joke, or the audience, or the tone of voice. Out of that clash rose the term "politically correct": Person A is offended, and person B (who isn't offended) says that A shouldn't insist we be "politically correct" all the time. I would say that we should at least be making a good faith effort not to insult others with our jokes and our language.

@Ohorseman , when you advise us not to be politically correct, is this the setting you're thinking of? Or do you have a different definition in mind?

I am going by the standard definition. I didn't know there was more than one.

po·lit·i·cal cor·rect·ness

noun
the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

Political correctness can be a problem for a Christian. For example, if I say that same-sex marriage is sinful, then it might be said that I am not being PC. Not only does it shut down free speech, it restricts the ability to share truths about our Faith.

PloverWing · Feb 19, 2020

Ohorseman said:
I am going by the standard definition. I didn't know there was more than one.

po·lit·i·cal cor·rect·ness

noun
the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

Political correctness can be a problem for a Christian. For example, if I say that same-sex marriage is sinful, then it might be said that I am not being PC. Not only does it shut down free speech, it restricts the ability to share truths about our Faith.

That definition will do. As a Christian, I try not to tell racist or sexist jokes, or to use insulting terms to describe people's ethnicity or gender. For that matter, I also try not to use insulting terms to describe gay or gender-nonconforming people, and I try not to tell jokes at their expense. I think this is a good policy for all Christians, regardless of your views on same-sex marriage or gender roles.

I agree that "political correctness" becomes a problem when it silences differences of opinions. But even there, it's best if we as Christians can find ways to express those differences of opinions with empathy and respect, and without insulting those we disagree with.

Better to offend or be politically correct?

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