Belief vs Disbelief

bhsmte said:

Wow!
Whatever happened to the whole; log in your own eye thing?

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According to you, Jesus was at best a local teacher and really didn't have any authority. Now you claim His authority to rebuke others? How fraudulent can you be? You're an embarrassment to all thinking atheists (much like some emotion based believers are embarrassing to thought based believers.)

Not to mention you have applied the injunction incorrectly. I am most aware of and painfully cognizant of the consequences of my decisions and actions.

Archie the Preacher said:

According to you, Jesus was at best a local teacher and really didn't have any authority. Now you claim His authority to rebuke others? How fraudulent can you be? You're an embarrassment to all thinking atheists (much like some emotion based believers are embarrassing to thought based believers.)

Not to mention you have applied the injunction incorrectly. I am most aware of and painfully cognizant of the consequences of my decisions and actions.

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He's not an embarrassment. Your taking this way too seriously, relax. You'll live longer.

brightlights said:

Liking something and worshipping something are different. Worship is unyielding commitment and faith. I suppose it is possible to worship cookies but I wouldn't see that as a common idol of our culture.

I would venture to say that there is something that you have an unyielding commitment to and faith in. You worship that thing.

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So if I value honesty or truth that much they are my God? But if I do not then I am an evil atheist?

Garbage.

I worship nothing, offer no sacrifices and have no gods.

But there are some things a value and over all my values remain more consistent than those of Christians.

brightlights said:

You're right. How I'm currently defining it is:

1. Whatever we credit as the ultimate source of good.
2. Whatever we obey.
3. Whatever we look to for help in time of need.

I think all three constitute worship.

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I see nothing as 1.

I obey my own conscience above all else. I obey the law for pragmatic reasons and such rarely conflicts with my own conscience.

I look to family and friends in times of need.

I worship none of there.

I have obligations to family and friends as they do towards me. None of us are gods or would even consider ourselves approaching that status.

Archie the Preacher said:

Yes, you do. You are your own ultimate authority. You either don't want to be responsible for your decisions or you are studiously non self-aware.

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What do you mean by 'ultimate authority'? I don't consider myself the 'ultimate authority' on any topic, except perhaps for what my private thoughts are at any given moment. Even for topics in which I might be an authority, by virtue of my education, I do not consider myself the 'ultimate authority', nor do I need to in order to justify the propositions I make. Instead I point to the relevant evidence and try to make logical arguments, acknowledging that I might be wrong.

Of course not! That would too close to accepting responsibility.

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As opposed to shifting responsibility for say, one's moral thinking, to a deity.

Very clever. I don't worship gravity either, but I'm pretty scrupulous about that as well. However, the fact stands that you only obey yourself and what ever (traffic laws for instance) you deem appropriate.

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By the same token you obey yourself and whatever doctrines you deem appropriate. Perhaps you worship your own religious opinion? Perhaps you elevate that opinion to the status of "God's opinion" and then pretend to humbly obey that opinion as though it were not yours to begin with.

And a stupid decision - according the law of Archaeopteryx - is a decision counter to the will of Archaeopteryx. But you don't worship yourself. No. Of course not.

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Strawman. A stupid decision is a stupid decision, regardless of whatever I happen to think about. In this particular case, however, I can find reasons for why it's stupid.

I find it somewhat ironic that we atheists are accused of worshipping ourselves, when theists take a melange of religious doctrines, elevate those doctrines to the status of God's Will and then feign humility in obedience to God's Will, which just so happens to be directly isomorphic to their preferred doctrines. They will then claim that they do not consider themselves as the ultimate authority, but God, who just so happens to reflect all their opinions. Sorry, but I don't deify my opinions and then pretend that they are God's and therefore represent the 'ultimate authority'. I acknowledge basic fallibilism.

Archie the Preacher said:

You are your own ultimate authority.

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No, I'm not.

I realize that I can make mistakes because I'm not in control of the universe, only my own mind and chosen actions. While I certainly do have a responsibility to make my own decisions, that doesn't mean that my judgment is of a higher quality than anyone else's.

You either don't want to be responsible for your decisions or you are studiously non self-aware.

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Wrong on both counts.

I accept responsibility for my decisions, both good and bad.

I am also studiously self-examining. I don't claim to be perfect in my self-knowledge, but I certainly do make the effort, as difficult as that may be at times.

However, the fact stands that you only obey yourself and what ever (traffic laws for instance) you deem appropriate.

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How is that a fact? I have obeyed laws I don't recognize as legitimate.

And a stupid decision - according the law of Archaeopteryx - is a decision counter to the will of Archaeopteryx.

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Nope. I don't think that I'm infallible, or that my judgment is the standard of truth and goodness. I simply accept the responsibility for judging and understanding instead of shifting it off onto others.

But you don't worship yourself. No. Of course not.

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That's correct. I don't.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Archie the Preacher said:

According to you, Jesus was at best a local teacher and really didn't have any authority. Now you claim His authority to rebuke others? How fraudulent can you be? You're an embarrassment to all thinking atheists (much like some emotion based believers are embarrassing to thought based believers.)

Not to mention you have applied the injunction incorrectly. I am most aware of and painfully cognizant of the consequences of my decisions and actions.

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Yea, ok.

Archie the Preacher said:

Veiled? Sorry it was hard for you to spot. Nor was it 'insult'; it is simply an observation of how many atheists tend to deny any responsibility for their decisions or actions. Except when being praised, of course. I presume that is an atheist thing, labeling any questioning of your opinions as 'insult'?

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No, I consider calling people idiots to be insulting.

Archie the Preacher said:

Who do you blame, then? What is the root cause of worldly problems then?

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Human nature.

Archie the Preacher said:

It has been demonstrated to be Divinely Inspired as the message of God to humanity.

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You have done nothing of the sort. Do you have something that cannot be said by someone else about their personal deity?

Archie the Preacher said:

If you don't 'get' that, it is your problem and lack, not anyone else's. Your rejection is irrelevant.

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So why are you here?

Archie the Preacher said:

Ah. So historical ignorance presents. Fine. The portion of the Bible called "Old Testament" is what the Jewish religion calls the 'Tanach'. It contains the Torah, History and Prophets which comprise the elements of the Jewish religion. (Not to be confused with non-religious 'social' Jews.)

The Torah contains the Laws and regulatory rules of the ancient nation of Israel and the origin of the nation of Israel.

The History is the record of the Judges and Kings of ancient Israel.

The Prophets record the pronouncements and historical accounts of various prophets; which includes most of the problems Israel underwent in the ancient period.

Now you know.

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You did not address my point. Do the Jews use your bible or not?

Archie the Preacher said:

Actually, you did impress me. But only in a negative way. If my rhetoric is 'empty' it is only as you lack the ability to comprehend reality.

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More empty rhetoric. If gods were reality they would not be lumped in with religions.