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Belief in the real presence

RileyG

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What denominations believe in the real presence in communion?

The Catholic Church
The Eastern Orthodox
The Oriental Orthodox Church
The Assyrian Church of the East
The Ancient Church of the East
The Anglican Communion/Episcopalians
Old Catholic Church/Polish National Catholic Church
Lutheranism
Moravians
Methodists? (spiritual presence)
Presbyterians? (spiritual presence)

Any others?

Memorial view only:

Baptists
Evangelicals
Reformed/United Church of Christ
Disciples of Christ/Church of Christ
Seventh Day Adventists
Anabaptists
 

The Liturgist

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What denominations believe in the real presence in communion?

The Catholic Church
The Eastern Orthodox
The Oriental Orthodox Church
The Assyrian Church of the East
The Ancient Church of the East
The Anglican Communion/Episcopalians
Old Catholic Church/Polish National Catholic Church
Lutheranism
Moravians
Methodists? (spiritual presence)
Presbyterians? (spiritual presence)

Any others?

Memorial view only:

Baptists
Evangelicals
Reformed/United Church of Christ
Disciples of Christ/Church of Christ
Seventh Day Adventists
Anabaptists

Only some Anglicans believe in the Real Presence. The infamous Black Rubric in the 1552 and 1662 editions of the BCP, which was removed from the Elizabethan prayer book and was never present in the liturgy of the Scottish Episcopalians or the Episcopal Church USA, was intended to prohibit a belief that our Lord was physically present in the Eucharist, and it is still in the official BCP of the C of E, since the greatly improved 1928 BCP was obstructed despite most Anglican members of Parliament supporting it, by an alliance between the dissenting Protestant MPs and the minority of low church Anglicans (who by that time represented a minority both in the Church of England and in most Anglican provinces, one of the few exceptions being the Church of Ireland which was known for its low churchmanship, or at present the Archdiocese of Sydney. But within Anglican provinces like the C of E or the Episcopal Church, some areas, for instance, in the US, Virginia and certain other areas of the Atlantic Coast, with some exceptions, are known for being largely low-church Anglicans, as my friend @Shane R can confirm).

Methodists tend to be vague about what occurs on the altar, to use the exact words of a United Methodist friend of mine, due to the influence of creeping Pietism triggered by the remark of John Wesley to George Whitefield that they might agree to disagree. However there are high church Methodists such as the Epworth Chapel on the Green in Boise Idaho who clearly believe in the Real Presence.
 
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RileyG

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Only some Anglicans believe in the Real Presence. The infamous Black Rubric in the 1552 and 1662 editions of the BCP, which was removed from the Elizabethan prayer book and was never present in the liturgy of the Scottish Episcopalians or the Episcopal Church USA, was intended to prohibit a belief that our Lord was physically present in the Eucharist, and it is still in the official BCP of the C of E, since the greatly improved 1928 BCP was obstructed despite most Anglican members of Parliament supporting it, by an alliance between the dissenting Protestant MPs and the minority of low church Anglicans (who by that time represented a minority both in the Church of England and in most Anglican provinces, one of the few exceptions being the Church of Ireland which was known for its low churchmanship, or at present the Archdiocese of Sydney. But within Anglican provinces like the C of E or the Episcopal Church, some areas, for instance, in the US, Virginia and certain other areas of the Atlantic Coast, with some exceptions, are known for being largely low-church Anglicans, as my friend @Shane R can confirm).

Methodists tend to be vague about what occurs on the altar, to use the exact words of a United Methodist friend of mine, due to the influence of creeping Pietism triggered by the remark of John Wesley to George Whitefield that they might agree to disagree. However there are high church Methodists such as the Epworth Chapel on the Green in Boise Idaho who clearly believe in the Real Presence.
Thanks for the response! :)
 
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seeking.IAM

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Methodists tend to be vague about what occurs on the altar,

I am the son of a Methodist minister and was a member for over 50 years. I only learned the official position of the UMCs was spiritual presence after I left the denomination. I think there are several inferences one can make from that.

I have told this story before around here, but I think telling it again is illustrative. After I left the UMC to join with the Anglicans, I visited my mother in long term care on a Sunday when her Methodist pastor dropped by to share communion with her (us). After fumbling the host and dropping it on the floor, the pastor picked it up and casually flipped it in my mother's wastebasket. I may have gasped. It was at that moment I realized my recently minted Anglican self had a much different understanding of what Christ's presence in the Eucharist meant than did my Methodist brothers.

I came home and wrote these words in a letter to my Methodist sisters, "So, if this week a fervent evangelist knocks upon your door to ask, “Have you found Jesus?,” you can answer in confidence. “Yes, he is in the wastebasket in my mother’s room.”
 
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RileyG

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I am the son of a Methodist minister and was a member for over 50 years. I only learned the official position of the UMCs was spiritual presence after I left the denomination. I think there are several inferences one can make from that.

I have told this story before around here, but I thing telling it again is illustrative. After I left the UMC to join with the Anglicans, I visited my mother in long term care on a Sunday when her Methodist pastor dropped by to share communion with her (us). After fumbling the host and dropping it on the floor, the pastor picked it up and casually flipped it in my mother's wastebasket. I may have gasped. It was at that moment I realized my recently minted Anglican self had a much different understanding of what Christ's presence in the Eucharist meant than did my Methodist brothers.

I came home and wrote these words in a letter to my Methodist sisters, "So, if this week a fervent evangelist knocks upon your door to ask, “Have you found Jesus?,” you can answer in confidence. “Yes, he is in the wastebasket in my mother’s room.”
Yikes! I'm surprised he didn't consume it. Was it the white host or was it a piece of leavened bread, with grape juice?

What did you believe about Holy Communion growing up?
 
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seeking.IAM

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Yikes! I'm surprised he didn't consume it. Was it the white host or was it a piece of leavened bread, with grape juice?

What did you believe about Holy Communion growing up?
It was a white host. Growing up I thought of Communion as something between a remembrance and a ritual of obedience to a commandment to "Do this..." I would be curious to know what a blind poll of most Methodists would reveal and how many in the pew really know what their Methodist statement of belief about this is. I think the point for me is that it wasn't something I ever remember anyone talking or teaching about; it was just something we did. That leaves a lot of room for individual interpretation that may not be compatible with a denomination's belief. I also think if this happened when I was a Methodist, I doubt I would have been aghast at a pastor similarly disposing of a dropped Host. It is only through the lens of having become Anglican that I came to see it differently. Do not mistake this for disparaging my Methodist brethren. I have much respect and high regard for my walk with them despite having chosen a different path.
 
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RileyG

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It was a white host. Growing up I thought of Communion as something between a remembrance and a ritual of obedience to a commandment to "Do this..." I would be curious to know what a blind poll of most Methodists would reveal and how many in the pew really know what their Methodist statement of belief about this is. I think the point for me is that it wasn't something I ever remember anyone talking or teaching about; it was just something we did. That leaves a lot of room for individual interpretation that may not be compatible with a denomination's belief. I also think if this happened when I was a Methodist, I doubt I would have been aghast at a pastor similarly disposing of a dropped Host. It is only through the lens of having become Anglican that I came to see it differently. Do not mistake this for disparaging my Methodist brethren. I have much respect and high regard for my walk with them despite having chosen a different path.
Thanks for the reply.
 
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The Liturgist

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I am the son of a Methodist minister and was a member for over 50 years. I only learned the official position of the UMCs was spiritual presence after I left the denomination. I think there are several inferences one can make from that.

I have told this story before around here, but I think telling it again is illustrative. After I left the UMC to join with the Anglicans, I visited my mother in long term care on a Sunday when her Methodist pastor dropped by to share communion with her (us). After fumbling the host and dropping it on the floor, the pastor picked it up and casually flipped it in my mother's wastebasket. I may have gasped. It was at that moment I realized my recently minted Anglican self had a much different understanding of what Christ's presence in the Eucharist meant than did my Methodist brothers.

I came home and wrote these words in a letter to my Methodist sisters, "So, if this week a fervent evangelist knocks upon your door to ask, “Have you found Jesus?,” you can answer in confidence. “Yes, he is in the wastebasket in my mother’s room.”

Fortunately not all Methodists are so lacking in Eucharistic piety.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yikes! I'm surprised he didn't consume it. Was it the white host or was it a piece of leavened bread, with grape juice?

What did you believe about Holy Communion growing up?

At my church we used leavened bread with grape juice and due to the wording of the liturgy I came to assume the truth of the real presence, and also this was the view of certain of my relatives.
 
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seeking.IAM

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At my church we used leavened bread with grape juice and due to the wording of the liturgy I came to assume the truth of the real presence, and also this was the view of certain of my relatives.

I have my old confirmation workbook from my youth around here somewhere. I will have to find it to read what it had to say about Communion. I'll post it if I can find it. It should be interesting to see if it was a point of emphasis.
 
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jas3

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I am the son of a Methodist minister and was a member for over 50 years. I only learned the official position of the UMCs was spiritual presence after I left the denomination. I think there are several inferences one can make from that.
It was similar for me, I was raised Methodist and didn't learn that the UMC taught anything other than memorialism until I was leaving the denomination. I was taught in confirmation that the communion elements had to be either completely consumed or scattered into nature - nothing about any kind of presence, real or otherwise. In my opinion now though, throwing it into a pond isn't much better than throwing it into the trash.
 
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RileyG

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It was similar for me, I was raised Methodist and didn't learn that the UMC taught anything other than memorialism until I was leaving the denomination. I was taught in confirmation that the communion elements had to be either completely consumed or scattered into nature - nothing about any kind of presence, real or otherwise. In my opinion now though, throwing it into a pond isn't much better than throwing it into the trash.
Scattered into nature? Such as leaving it in a flower bud for bugs to eat?
 
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The Liturgist

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It was similar for me, I was raised Methodist and didn't learn that the UMC taught anything other than memorialism until I was leaving the denomination. I was taught in confirmation that the communion elements had to be either completely consumed or scattered into nature - nothing about any kind of presence, real or otherwise. In my opinion now though, throwing it into a pond isn't much better than throwing it into the trash.

I believe the idea of scattering them is related to the Western use of a Piscina or drain for the disposal of purificators and certain other items of refuse resulting from the celebration of the Eucharist - the equivalent to a purifactor used in the Byzantine Rite is the liturgical sponge, which if you watch the video I linked you to in another thread, you will be well acquainted with, and this and other related material is destroyed by burning it. However this would not be done with the Eucharist itself except under extreme circumstances, and it could also be buried I think. I know of a Roman Catholic priest whose Eucharistic devotion was so great that he performed the ablutions (consuming the unused portions of the Eucharist) on a chalice that had been inadvertently severely contaminated, and he was unharmed, but it was not required for him to do that.

In the Orthodox Church, the use of the spoon in the Byzantine RIte and the boiling hot water added to the Eucharist reduces the risk of this.

By the way, this brings me to some things that at this stage in your catechesis, you may or may not be aware of, but they are relevant to this thread in terms of showing how churches that believe in the Real Presence distribute the Eucharist:

The Eastern Orthodox put a particle of the body on the spoon which is filled with the blood, whereas the Coptic Orthodox administer each separately (and if there is only one priest, it takes a long time, because first the bread is given to the men and boys, then to the women and girls, and then the blood to the men and boys, and then to the women and girls. Men and boys normally receive from the North side of the altar (to the left of the Holy Doors when facing East, although in Coptic churches there is normally just the curtain), and the women and girls receive on the south side of the altar (to the right of the Holy Doors facing East). One is tightly packed in line with other members of the church, which creates a feeling of brotherhood or sisterhood, and it is thrilling as a layman to actually go through the iconostasis to be on either side of the altar. You pass through what would be the Deacon’s Doors in an Eastern Orthodox Church into the iconostasis, except in monasteries, where there are either extra chapels with extra altars, for training priests, etc, or else there is a space for the monks on the other side of the iconostasis, or immediately in front of it, so at St. Anthony’s, they do the Eucharist from the middle of the nave, which is atypical.

The Armenians use unleavened bread, but it is not in the form of the dry wafers used by the Roman Catholics, but rather freshly prepared. And I believe they use a separate chalice, like the Roman Catholics, Lutherans* and most Anglicans. The Assyrian Church of the East also does it this way, but with leavened bread. I don’t know how the Ethiopians consecrate the Eucharist.

The Syriac Orthodox either give the Eucharist in the middle of the church or to one side, so that people not partaking can exit at the other side, as it is often served to the people at the very end of the liturgy while the deacons and singers sing the beautiful Eucharistic hymn Haw Nurone, and the Syriac Orthodox serve the liturgy by intincting particles of the Body in the Blood, and then the priest will pop these into the mouth of the communicant, similar to how traditional Catholics, Anglo Catholics and Lutherans receive the Eucharist on the tongue, except the Syriac Orthodox do not kneel while receiving, at least on Sunday, probably due to Canon XX of the Council of Nicaea.

I made a post about Haw Nurone in the Oriental Orthodox forum: The Syriac Hymn Haw Nurone as a Confession of Eucharistic Faith

One reason why i am such a fan of the ecumenical agreement between the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and the Syriac Orthodox is it has the effect of enabling Eastern Orthodox Christians, or at least those who are members of the Church of Antioch in Syria, Lebanon, etc, to benefit from the experience of the beauty of the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, which is incredibly rich.

* Some Lutheran churches (I have only personally seen this in the ELCA), and the Moravians, use these trays with little plastic cups for distributing the consecrated wine, which I dislike immensely; @MarkRohfrietsch might know more about that, but my objection is that it risks the accidental spill of the Blood of our Lord. The Coptic Orthodox do use these trays to distribute Holy Water, which is consumed following the Eucharist in order to make sure that the Body and Blood have been completely washed down. The Slavonic churches, such as ROCOR, provide blessed wine for the same purpose, in addition to the antidoron, which is offered by every Eastern church I just mentioned.
 
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RileyG

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I think the trays with little cups is found mostly in Presbyterian, Reformed, and United Church of Christ circles. Correct me if I’m wrong.
 
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RileyG

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I have my old confirmation workbook from my youth around here somewhere. I will have to find it to read what it had to say about Communion. I'll post it if I can find it. It should be interesting to see if it was a point of emphasis.
Wow! I wonder how old that workbook is!! That’s pretty cool!
 
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jas3

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Scattered into nature? Such as leaving it in a flower bud for bugs to eat?
Exactly. I searched to see if this was an official UMC policy and found this CF thread that reports similar practices:


And this is probably the relevant official policy, from This Holy Mystery:

"If any bread and wine remain, they should always be disposed of by (1) the pastor and/or others at the pastor’s direction consuming them in a reverent manner following the service; (2) returning them to the earth by pouring (2 Samuel 23:16), burying, scattering, or burning."

The last time I took communion was a couple of years ago while visiting my hometown church, and it was given out in sealed plastic cups with prepackaged wafers on top. The cups were thrown in the trash on the way out - a very distressing experience when I was coming to terms with the doctrine of the Real Presence and doubting whether I should be taking communion at Methodist churches anymore.
 
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RileyG

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Exactly. I searched to see if this was an official UMC policy and found this CF thread that reports similar practices:


And this is probably the relevant official policy, from This Holy Mystery:

"If any bread and wine remain, they should always be disposed of by (1) the pastor and/or others at the pastor’s direction consuming them in a reverent manner following the service; (2) returning them to the earth by pouring (2 Samuel 23:16), burying, scattering, or burning."

The last time I took communion was a couple of years ago while visiting my hometown church, and it was given out in sealed plastic cups with prepackaged wafers on top. The cups were thrown in the trash on the way out - a very distressing experience when I was coming to terms with the doctrine of the Real Presence and doubting whether I should be taking communion at Methodist churches anymore.
Are you a recent convert to Orthodoxy?
 
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jas3

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Are you a recent convert to Orthodoxy?
Yes, I became a catechumen a few weeks ago following a period of three years of being an inquirer where I studied Catholic and Orthodox theology and church history and ultimately started regularly attending those churches as a visitor.
 
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RileyG

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Yes, I became a catechumen a few weeks ago following a period of three years of being an inquirer where I studied Catholic and Orthodox theology and church history and ultimately started regularly attending those churches as a visitor.
So you haven't officially converted yet?
 
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jas3

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So you haven't officially converted yet?
I've found that there's a wide range of people's understanding of what it means to "convert" between churches. As most people would understand the term, no, I haven't officially converted. My priest would probably say that I've converted but haven't been brought into communion with the Church, or at least that I've committed to convert; he made it clear before I became a catechumen that in his view, becoming a catechumen is making a commitment to complete catechesis and become Orthodox, as opposed to other churches where catechism is seen as a class during which you discern whether or not you want to join.
 
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