• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

Being a good Christian with the Crime and Migrant issue in Europe.

OldBlighty

New Member
Apr 15, 2024
1
0
33
North East
✟8,053.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I need perspective on this please.

In the past year, I've opened my heart to the Lord. It's objectively made my life better and I have Jesus to thank for that.

Although this seems to be a particularly political issue, it's been well documented that like the US, Europe is facing it's own issues in terms of mass immigration and rising crime.

For a long time, I was indifferent to immigration, after all my own Mother was an immigrant. In the past few years, I've witnessed the consequences that unchecked immigration brings and the affect that has on local crime. It bothers me because the political establishment wants you to believe we live in some sort of melting pot utopia and the police are limited as to what they can do. They practically have to wait until something tragic has happened, to even make a statement.

As a family man, I fear for my children's future. As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate. In the past, I realised in myself how I was beginning to hate others I didn't know just based on the assumption that they're immigrants, I know that's wrong but it's a survival mechanism at the end of the day. In any case, I pulled away from that and politics in general.

What can I look to in the Bible that will keep me level headed in these uncertain times?
 

Josheb

Christian
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
2,532
949
NoVa
✟256,500.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What can I look to in the Bible that will keep me level headed in these uncertain times?
How about the following:

Exodus 22:21
You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:33-37
When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 10:19
So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.

Proverbs 11:1
A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is His delight.





Exodus 12:43-49
The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner is to eat of it; but every man's slave purchased with money, after you have circumcised him, then he may eat of it. "A sojourner or a hired servant shall not eat of it. "It is to be eaten in a single house; you are not to bring forth any of the flesh outside of the house, nor are you to break any bone of it. "All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this. "But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Leviticus 24:22-23
There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" Then Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, and they brought the one who had cursed outside the camp and stoned him with stones. Thus, the sons of Israel did, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Numbers 15:14-16
If an alien sojourns with you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wishes to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the LORD, just as you do so he shall do. ~'As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD. ~'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.




The first set of laws speak to the expectation the alien must be shown compassion, justice, and equal treatment under the laws of the land. The second set of laws describes the expectation the alien must abide by the laws of the land (even if it means meting out the consequences of a capital crime).

Third, in the New Testament (I won't quote them because of space) we find the writers using the motif of the alien to describe our existence in this world. These were written at a time when Christians were persecuted and prosecuted unjustly, often lethally...... yet nowhere do we read Christians of the early Church being instructed to ignore the rules of the land in which they live.

Romans 13:1-8
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore, it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.


Here's a person application: I have sponsored four people's immigration appeals for residency, work, and subsequent citizenship. Three of the four came legally, one was here illegally. All four suffered egregiously in their countries of origin. I am not making any statement of causation, but the three who came legally were from African countries and the one who came illegally was from central America. I have helped them with the paperwork, worked with their lawyers, prayed with them, and testified in immigration court on their behalf. Sadly, the one who came illegally proved to be a person of very poor character, an alcoholic who would not work, and who often lied about his life to everyone. The other three have gone on to marry, get educated, obtain jobs, and become productive members of this society, well-respected among their peers.

There is nothing ungodly about maintaining a country's borders. Every country has the liberty (and responsibility) to establish its own rules governing immigration and it is incumbent upon all people to follow the rules of each nation...... or willingly face the consequences when the rules are violated. In America that can mean deportation, incarceration, or death. Try being a Christian in North Korea, Afghanistan, or Somalia. Europe may be imperfect but when it follows its own laws it is just and that is what God expects.


Many years ago, during the Clinton administration when we were having an earlier crisis of illegal immigration my wife asked me what I thought about the matter and my response was, "Enforce the law, and where the laws are unjust then change them." The very first year one million immigrants crossed the American southern border was 1956. President Regan granted amnesty to 3-4 million people who come to the country illegally; 5-6 million under Clinton. This past year an estimated 8-10 million crossed in just the last three years. The problem is getting worse and that places previously unknown conditions on the citizens, most of whom claim some religious affiliation that espouses the principles cited above.

Lastly, war is the chief reason for illegal immigration (and sometimes legal immigration). It's been that way for centuries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldBlighty
Upvote 0

Jermayn

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2019
1,220
649
Northwest Florida
✟147,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I need perspective on this please.

In the past year, I've opened my heart to the Lord. It's objectively made my life better and I have Jesus to thank for that.

Although this seems to be a particularly political issue, it's been well documented that like the US, Europe is facing it's own issues in terms of mass immigration and rising crime.

For a long time, I was indifferent to immigration, after all my own Mother was an immigrant. In the past few years, I've witnessed the consequences that unchecked immigration brings and the affect that has on local crime. It bothers me because the political establishment wants you to believe we live in some sort of melting pot utopia and the police are limited as to what they can do. They practically have to wait until something tragic has happened, to even make a statement.

As a family man, I fear for my children's future. As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate. In the past, I realised in myself how I was beginning to hate others I didn't know just based on the assumption that they're immigrants, I know that's wrong but it's a survival mechanism at the end of the day. In any case, I pulled away from that and politics in general.

What can I look to in the Bible that will keep me level headed in these uncertain times?
This is a tough question and one I struggle with myself, being a conservative republican in America. I'm not a fan of mass deportation, which is something my political party generally is for, but I also see the problems that mass, unchecked, immigration can cause. Instead of hating on immigrants, regardless of their legal status, I have decided to view it as an opportunity to share the Gospel with a group of people that may not have heard it yet. That doesn't mean I am for open borders however, because I don't think it is a sin or hateful to take into account what our economy can support, as well as the safety of the people already living here, before letting just anybody in. I think this is the responsible thing to do. For the people who have already come, I think they should be given a path to citizenship so long as they adapt to American culture, stay out of trouble, and are able to support themselves, along with any family members who came with them. Rounding them up and dumping them back in their home country would make me feel like we're saying they are human trash, which they are not.
Your situation is made even more complicated because the majority of immigration to your country is Muslim and seems to be very hostile to your culture. On top of that, your government seems to want to lock you up for hate speech for something even as simple as this post. That's where I think the real problem with the whole immigration issue lies. Politicians are willing to forgo their responsibility to the people already residing in their countries to maintain power. They throw the borders wide open and call you a racist xenophobe if you even think about why that could become a problem in the future.
The answer I would give you is, don't hate anyone, but look to Jesus Christ as an example. He could have come and saved the Jews only, but he didn't. He died to give the whole world the chance to become citizens of God's Kingdom. I would also say, be careful. Going to a Muslim no-go zone to share the Gospel will most likely only end bad for you. People are usually more open when they are alone and not surrounded by their usually peer group.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldBlighty
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,768
5,108
European Union
✟212,077.00
Country
Czech Republic
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I need perspective on this please.

In the past year, I've opened my heart to the Lord. It's objectively made my life better and I have Jesus to thank for that.

Although this seems to be a particularly political issue, it's been well documented that like the US, Europe is facing it's own issues in terms of mass immigration and rising crime.

For a long time, I was indifferent to immigration, after all my own Mother was an immigrant. In the past few years, I've witnessed the consequences that unchecked immigration brings and the affect that has on local crime. It bothers me because the political establishment wants you to believe we live in some sort of melting pot utopia and the police are limited as to what they can do. They practically have to wait until something tragic has happened, to even make a statement.

As a family man, I fear for my children's future. As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate. In the past, I realised in myself how I was beginning to hate others I didn't know just based on the assumption that they're immigrants, I know that's wrong but it's a survival mechanism at the end of the day. In any case, I pulled away from that and politics in general.

What can I look to in the Bible that will keep me level headed in these uncertain times?
I do not think its a specifically Christian issue. Its rather a generally ethical issue.

In some contexts and measure, welcoming those who need and want help, even temporarily, is ethical.

In some contexts and measure, it becomes unethical and dangerous towards the original population.

Finding the balance is a sensitive issue and almost the whole developed world is currently struggling to figure it out.

As a Christian, specifically, you should also try to find the right balance. There is nothing different about it for Christians.
 
Upvote 0

Josheb

Christian
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
2,532
949
NoVa
✟256,500.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is a tough question and one I struggle with myself, being a conservative republican in America. I'm not a fan of mass deportation, which is something my political party generally is for, but I also see the problems that mass, unchecked, immigration can cause.
Is it okay, iyo, that other countries engage in mass deprotation?
Instead of hating on immigrants....
Who, specifically, is it you think is "hating on immigrants"?
, regardless of their legal status, I have decided to view it as an opportunity to share the Gospel with a group of people that may not have heard it yet.
Amen, but most South Americans are Catholic. Without getting into the divide between RCism and Protestantism, most of them have already heard the gospel (or at least a Marxist-influenced version of it). What they may not have experienced is the application of the gospel.
That doesn't mean I am for open borders however, because I don't think it is a sin or hateful to take into account what our economy can support, as well as the safety of the people already living here, before letting just anybody in.
That is incorrect. If 45.4 million people (that is 14% of the entire US population) were not using welfare resources our economy would look much different. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, 59.4 of immigrant households use one or more welfare program. The US spends about a half-trillion dollars per year per year in welfare to immigrants. That doe NOT include money spent enforcing the border and other areas where other resources are spent on what is a very real logistical problem. The logistics have become so untenable the moral problem is multiplied! Every dollar spent on someone who has broken the law to get here is a dollar that cannot be spent on someone who arrived legally. Those dollars cannot be spent on non-immigrant citizens in need of government assistance, either. ALL of these same conditions apply to the Church, too. We, you and me, cannot help those who've here legally as well because our resources (material and non-material) are divided.
I think this is the responsible thing to do.
Let me make sure I understand that correctly: Despite being against open borders, it is right to spend resources on those who've come here illegally at the expense of those who were born here and those who've come here legally?
For the people who have already come, I think they should be given a path to citizenship so long as they adapt to American culture, stay out of trouble, and are able to support themselves, along with any family members who came with them.
Aside from the "path to citizenship" those laws already exist. Not a single thing has to change, legally.

This is like when Second Amendment critics say gun reform must include background checks and automatic weapons cannot be sold legally. Those arguments do nothing more than show a profound ignorance of the facts because no one in America can buy a gun legally without a background check or purchase an automatic weapon without a specific government-sanctioned need for one. Those laws have been on the books for decades.

It is because of dishonest leftist propaganda most folks do not know the correct and effective laws on immigration already exist. They are not being enforced. That is the problem. Lawlessness on both sides of the border has cause the problem (in America, at least). I'm sure different explanations and different problems ensue in England, France, and Europe as a whole. The US is about the same size as the whole of Europe (the US is about .04% bigger), but Europe is an aggregation of individual nation-states each with their own sovereignty in ways individual states in the United States do not have. So when England has 10 million immigrants in 56 million people (67 mil in the UK) that's a slightly bigger problem, and evidence of lawlessness on both sides of the border.
Rounding them up and dumping them back in their home country would make me feel like we're saying they are human trash, which they are not.
We're not supposed to act based on feelings.
Your situation is made even more complicated because the majority of immigration to your country is Muslim and seems to be very hostile to your culture.
Which is one of the reasons most western countries regulated immigration. No country wants the loss of its culture and character. This gets exploited in the US and the UK because we have a greater degree of inherent plurality than most European countries. Add to the diversity! is the argument but the actual result is the adulteration of the existing already-diverse culture. Here in America, we have always taken in more people legally than most other countries combined. America has never been anti-immigration, but we have practiced immigration policy following the rule of law. It's only in the past three or four decades that the rule of law has eroded.

The US accommodates 4.5 Muslim, the overwhelming majority of which immigrated here legally. We have 333 million people overall. The UK has about the same number of Muslims in a population one-fifth the size :openmouth:. France has about 50% more Muslims in a population comparable to the UK. Land-wise, France is about the size of our Texas, and the UK about the size or our Oregon. Four decades these three countries used to spend money helping other countries improve themselves (yes, it was typically with economic benefit to us) and that served an indirectly limiting effect on illegal immigration and a positively moderating effect on legal immigration. We still get many of the best, brightest, and industrious of other countries and educate them and employ them. Many of them become citizens..... but many of them go back to their own countries to positive economic and gospel effect in their countries of origin.

Get back to the rule of law and many, if not most, of the problems associated with illegal immigration will solve themselves. That is the godly thing to do.
On top of that, your government seems to want to lock you up for hate speech for something even as simple as this post.
Off-topic.
That's where I think the real problem with the whole immigration issue lies.
No, hate speech is a red herring.
 
Upvote 0

Josheb

Christian
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
2,532
949
NoVa
✟256,500.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I do not think its a specifically Christian issue. Its rather a generally ethical issue. In some contexts and measure, welcoming those who need and want help, even temporarily, is ethical. In some contexts and measure, it becomes unethical and dangerous towards the original population. Finding the balance is a sensitive issue and almost the whole developed world is currently struggling to figure it out. As a Christian, specifically, you should also try to find the right balance. There is nothing different about it for Christians.
Well said. However, it is not a sensitive issue unless it is made a sensitive issue. The fundamental, presuppositional struggle is how to return to the rule of law. That does not get much attention and that lack exacerbates the problem. The rule of law is (supposed to be) unbiased and benefits everyone. For Christians, the laws of God are fulfilled in love..... but it is not love to violate the laws of one's own country and facilitate the breaking of other countries' laws.

It does not seem to occur to many Christians that suffering is often God's doing! Or at least occurs by His consent. God could make it so not a single person in the world suffers. That so many people leave their homelands cannot occur without God's consent. Yet somehow those of us (Christians) in the western countries to which they come think it is unkind to send them back, to spend money in their countries when that money spent on their home, they might be much more effective :hushed:. The single best weapon against tyranny is the gospel. That's why despots purge their countries of it.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Unscrewing Romans 1:32
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,059
11,210
56
Space Mountain!
✟1,318,712.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I need perspective on this please.

In the past year, I've opened my heart to the Lord. It's objectively made my life better and I have Jesus to thank for that.

Although this seems to be a particularly political issue, it's been well documented that like the US, Europe is facing it's own issues in terms of mass immigration and rising crime.

For a long time, I was indifferent to immigration, after all my own Mother was an immigrant. In the past few years, I've witnessed the consequences that unchecked immigration brings and the affect that has on local crime. It bothers me because the political establishment wants you to believe we live in some sort of melting pot utopia and the police are limited as to what they can do. They practically have to wait until something tragic has happened, to even make a statement.

As a family man, I fear for my children's future. As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate. In the past, I realised in myself how I was beginning to hate others I didn't know just based on the assumption that they're immigrants, I know that's wrong but it's a survival mechanism at the end of the day. In any case, I pulled away from that and politics in general.

What can I look to in the Bible that will keep me level headed in these uncertain times?

Maybe focus on the social nuances of what it means for Jesus to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament Passover Lamb.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
8,619
4,613
✟346,575.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
At one point I believed in the Idea of immigration legally, that it made no difference what the religious or cultural or even ethnic make up of the people who migrated to a country was. Seeing however the change in Europe, America and my own country New Zealand it seems to me absurd that mass migration improves anything. Instead all it does is divide society into ethnic, cultural and religious enclaves and the melting pot doesn't happen. The upshot is that the majority population of a country like the UK feels it's people being replaced, tot he point where it's capital is no longer majority English.

Christianity is leveraged in order to provide justification for this. That our neighbors are all peoples and we have a duty to accept our countries being transformed in this way. Yet historically the most Christian countries never willingly engaged in the deliberate importation of mass amounts of foreign peoples. There has always been a duty to treat the stranger with respect and kindness but it was never at the expense of your brother, your kin or ethnic group. There was a hierarchy to whom we owe our loyalty and love to first and instead we've reverse that to the point where you have Christians legitimately want mass migration of Muslims into Europe because they believe that is the kind thing to do.

It is madness.
 
Upvote 0

Jermayn

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2019
1,220
649
Northwest Florida
✟147,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Is it okay, iyo, that other countries engage in mass deprotation?
No.

Who, specifically, is it you think is "hating on immigrants"?
I am a conservative who lives in a conservative state and town. 99.9% of my friends are conservatives. Conservatives do a lot of hating on immigrants.

Amen, but most South Americans are Catholic. Without getting into the divide between RCism and Protestantism, most of them have already heard the gospel (or at least a Marxist-influenced version of it). What they may not have experienced is the application of the gospel.
Then they are our brothers and sisters in Christ? Shouldn't that make us even more willing to help them out?

That is incorrect. If 45.4 million people (that is 14% of the entire US population) were not using welfare resources our economy would look much different. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, 59.4 of immigrant households use one or more welfare program. The US spends about a half-trillion dollars per year per year in welfare to immigrants. That doe NOT include money spent enforcing the border and other areas where other resources are spent on what is a very real logistical problem. The logistics have become so untenable the moral problem is multiplied! Every dollar spent on someone who has broken the law to get here is a dollar that cannot be spent on someone who arrived legally. Those dollars cannot be spent on non-immigrant citizens in need of government assistance, either. ALL of these same conditions apply to the Church, too. We, you and me, cannot help those who've here legally as well because our resources (material and non-material) are divided.
Not sure how I am incorrect. It sounds like you agree with my statement. To recap, I don't think it's a sin or hateful to limit the amount of people coming into our country based on the safety of the people who already live here as well as what our economy can support.

Let me make sure I understand that correctly: Despite being against open borders, it is right to spend resources on those who've come here illegally at the expense of those who were born here and those who've come here legally?
My statement was that there should be a path to citizenship for those who can prove that they can support themselves and any family members who are here with them as well as integrate with American culture and stay out of trouble.


Aside from the "path to citizenship" those laws already exist. Not a single thing has to change, legally.

This is like when Second Amendment critics say gun reform must include background checks and automatic weapons cannot be sold legally. Those arguments do nothing more than show a profound ignorance of the facts because no one in America can buy a gun legally without a background check or purchase an automatic weapon without a specific government-sanctioned need for one. Those laws have been on the books for decades.

It is because of dishonest leftist propaganda most folks do not know the correct and effective laws on immigration already exist. They are not being enforced. That is the problem. Lawlessness on both sides of the border has cause the problem (in America, at least). I'm sure different explanations and different problems ensue in England, France, and Europe as a whole. The US is about the same size as the whole of Europe (the US is about .04% bigger), but Europe is an aggregation of individual nation-states each with their own sovereignty in ways individual states in the United States do not have. So when England has 10 million immigrants in 56 million people (67 mil in the UK) that's a slightly bigger problem, and evidence of lawlessness on both sides of the border.
Great, so we just need one more law to give a path to citizenship for those who can prove themselves deserving of it.

We're not supposed to act based on feelings.
We are supposed to act based on Jesus Christ's example. I don't see him rounding up immigrants and dumping them in their home countries with nothing. I would also like to add that the "facts don't care about your feelings' adage will be the downfall of conservative politics. The vast majority of this country votes based off their feelings. Do I agree with it? As a conservative, not really, but it is what it is. "Feelings don't care about your facts" is a much stronger argument in American politics, unfortunately.



Which is one of the reasons most western countries regulated immigration. No country wants the loss of its culture and character. This gets exploited in the US and the UK because we have a greater degree of inherent plurality than most European countries. Add to the diversity! is the argument but the actual result is the adulteration of the existing already-diverse culture. Here in America, we have always taken in more people legally than most other countries combined. America has never been anti-immigration, but we have practiced immigration policy following the rule of law. It's only in the past three or four decades that the rule of law has eroded.

The US accommodates 4.5 Muslim, the overwhelming majority of which immigrated here legally. We have 333 million people overall. The UK has about the same number of Muslims in a population one-fifth the size :openmouth:. France has about 50% more Muslims in a population comparable to the UK. Land-wise, France is about the size of our Texas, and the UK about the size or our Oregon. Four decades these three countries used to spend money helping other countries improve themselves (yes, it was typically with economic benefit to us) and that served an indirectly limiting effect on illegal immigration and a positively moderating effect on legal immigration. We still get many of the best, brightest, and industrious of other countries and educate them and employ them. Many of them become citizens..... but many of them go back to their own countries to positive economic and gospel effect in their countries of origin.

Get back to the rule of law and many, if not most, of the problems associated with illegal immigration will solve themselves. That is the godly thing to do.
Understood, but how does this answer the question of how to guard yourself from hating the people that are already here and how you should treat them?

Off-topic.
It is NOT off-topic. The topic, again, is how to guard your heart from hating immigrants. The government deeming any and all concern over immigration hate-speech and threatening to lock you up for it creates negative feelings toward the government. It also translates to the immigrants themselves in the form of hatred.
 
Upvote 0

Josheb

Christian
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
2,532
949
NoVa
✟256,500.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You do understand that is what is happening by default, yes?
I am a conservative who lives in a conservative state and town. 99.9% of my friends are conservatives. Conservatives do a lot of hating on immigrants.
This one does not, and I asked for specifics.
Then they are our brothers and sisters in Christ? Shouldn't that make us even more willing to help them out?
Was my original reply to this op read?
Not sure how I am incorrect. It sounds like you agree with my statement. To recap, I don't think it's a sin or hateful to limit the amount of people coming into our country based on the safety of the people who already live here as well as what our economy can support.
My regrets. I misread the post. I agree with you: it is not sinful or hateful to regulate and restrict migration into this country.
My statement was that there should be a path to citizenship for those who can prove that they can support themselves and any family members who are here with them as well as integrate with American culture and stay out of trouble.
That would mean about 90% of the world's population could be let into the country. It would also exclude some of those most in need (some need education/training, and opportunity before being self-supportive and integrating). Prior US policy has accommodated a mixture and kept overall numbers specified..
Great, so we just need one more law to give a path to citizenship for those who can prove themselves deserving of it.
Why? They came here illegally! They've already demonstrated a willingness, intent, and ability to violate our laws. Many, not most but still many, have also chosen to violate other laws, and those are from the group we know that crossed. We do not have a clue what the never-caught have been doing. As we've already both acknowledged the resources are limited and demand enormous. Why do we need a path to citizen ship when it has never worked to solve the problem in the past?
We are supposed to act based on Jesus Christ's example. I don't see him rounding up immigrants and dumping them in their home countries with nothing.
Then I encourage you to re-read the Bible. The exact same Jesus who hung on the cross is the one who meted out the Law of Moses, obeyed it during his earthly walk. The exact same Jesus who hung on the cross is the guy coming back with a word in his mouth! He's the same Jesus that sent Assyria, Babylon, and Rome against Jerusalem in wrathful judgment (destroying a lot of surplus population. Ironically, he's the same guy that forced immigration into other lands :hushed:. Jesus' character is no more fixed than yours or mind (and probably infinitely much more diverse ;)).
I would also like to add that the "facts don't care about your feelings' adage will be the downfall of conservative politics. The vast majority of this country votes based off their feelings. Do I agree with it? As a conservative, not really, but it is what it is. "Feelings don't care about your facts" is a much stronger argument in American politics, unfortunately.
non sequitur
Understood, but how does this answer the question of how to guard yourself from hating the people that are already here and how you should treat them?
Great question. In addition to my original reply to this op I will suggest the cart is before the horse in that question. We get our heart right and the standards by which we govern will be veracious, efficacious, and godly. Laws-first, or regulations-first kills both sides (legalism always kills)..
It is NOT off-topic. The topic, again, is how to guard your heart from hating immigrants.
No, the topic is how to be a good Christian with the crime issue and migrant issue in Europe.
The government deeming any and all concern over immigration hate-speech and threatening to lock you up for it creates negative feelings toward the government. It also translates to the immigrants themselves in the form of hatred.
Yep. It is definitely going to be tough being a Christian in a country that does not honor its own laws and contradictorily legislates against its own free-speech laws (especially when done for ideological reasons). Nero impaled Christians on poles while they were still alive, dipped them in pitch and then lit them afire to be used as streetlights :(. I suppose we could rejoice we're either silenced or risk incarceration where three meals are provided.

Have you ever read Francis Schaeffer's trilogy? Ot at least the third book of the trilogy, "He is There and He is Not Silent"?

Are you familiar with American Vision?


I'll explain why I ask once I know.
 
Upvote 0

Jermayn

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2019
1,220
649
Northwest Florida
✟147,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No, the topic is how to be a good Christian with the crime issue and migrant issue in Europe.
If you read past the title, the OP specifically says "As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate."

Regardless, I don't have enough time to keep responding to every sentence typed. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament covenant and gave us 2 new commands. To love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love our neighbors as ourselves. That being said, if America went full on communism, food supplies disappeared, and you fled to another country in an attempt to feed your family and yourself, would you want that government to round you up and dump you back in your home country?

Again, I am for strong border security, the wall, etc., and I understand there are people who have illegally immigrated who are shady and into running drugs, human trafficking, etc. Not trying to defend those guys/girls.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 3, 2023
17
3
24
Rome
✟16,084.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I need perspective on this please.

In the past year, I've opened my heart to the Lord. It's objectively made my life better and I have Jesus to thank for that.

Although this seems to be a particularly political issue, it's been well documented that like the US, Europe is facing it's own issues in terms of mass immigration and rising crime.

For a long time, I was indifferent to immigration, after all my own Mother was an immigrant. In the past few years, I've witnessed the consequences that unchecked immigration brings and the affect that has on local crime. It bothers me because the political establishment wants you to believe we live in some sort of melting pot utopia and the police are limited as to what they can do. They practically have to wait until something tragic has happened, to even make a statement.

As a family man, I fear for my children's future. As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate. In the past, I realised in myself how I was beginning to hate others I didn't know just based on the assumption that they're immigrants, I know that's wrong but it's a survival mechanism at the end of the day. In any case, I pulled away from that and politics in general.

What can I look to in the Bible that will keep me level headed in these uncertain times?
Christians of this world live on agreements between them etc... so that they can live in peace(with Christ firstly). Elections're an agreement between christians and others... Good for a starting point.
So the best thing is to agree with social well-being(the second commandment between cristians), but the life isn't easy in this world. Take a look at Gal 5, 14..15, it's the minimum to be christian followers about social well-being. It means that christians of this world are free to be more christian.
 
Upvote 0

Josheb

Christian
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
2,532
949
NoVa
✟256,500.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you read past the title, the OP specifically says "As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate."

Regardless, I don't have enough time to keep responding to every sentence typed. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament covenant and gave us 2 new commands. To love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love our neighbors as ourselves. That being said, if America went full on communism, food supplies disappeared, and you fled to another country in an attempt to feed your family and yourself, would you want that government to round you up and dump you back in your home country?

Again, I am for strong border security, the wall, etc., and I understand there are people who have illegally immigrated who are shady and into running drugs, human trafficking, etc. Not trying to defend those guys/girls.
I stayed away from the "hate" issue because 1) that has nothing to do with the border, 2) a responsiveness to my reply to the op (and those of others) informs the purported hate issue, 3) most Christians, new or old, know how not to hate, 4) hate, if that is what it is, indicates an investment that may not be recognized, 5) haters are gonna hate and nothing written here will change that ;), 6) by this time it seems the op wasn't interested in guidance (or the discussion thereof) since the op is more than a week old and it author hasn't replied to anything (how often do we read someone genuinely ask for help with hate?), and 6) the "thumbs up" like for Post 2 seems to indicate that reply was helpful.
As a relatively new Christian, I'm seeking guidance in how I can keep my heart from hate. In the past, I realised in myself how I was beginning to hate others I didn't know just based on the assumption that they're immigrants, I know that's wrong but it's a survival mechanism at the end of the day. In any case, I pulled away from that and politics in general.
Try starting with...

Philippians 2:3-7
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant...

Ephesians 4:26-32
Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Romans 12:9-21 ESV
Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.

...understanding that part about "heaping burning coals" is an ancient idiom meaning "rekindle their warmth and sustenance," (not shaming someone).
What can I look to in the Bible that will keep me level headed in these uncertain times?
For one, stop thinking they are uncertain and, second, try figuring out why uncertainty was thought the best way to go with your thinking. Third, lean into any perception of uncertainty because it's all been decided by God and there isn't a thing any of us can do about it. Maybe take a cue from something Paul wrote the younger Timothy toward the end of the elder's apostleship...

1 Timothy 6:6-21
But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time — He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed. O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"— which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

This is the only time "uncertainty" is found in the NT. There are a lot of verses about worry, anxiety, and fear, but uncertainty the God Whose will is done spent much time on. If hope in riches in uncertain, then what certainty is there in politics, or speculation about the future?

Matthew 10:28-33
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. Therefore, everyone who confesses me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.


That is what is certain. Matthew 6:22-34 is helpful, too.
 
Upvote 0