Before or After?

[mdith4him]

We all know the account in Genesis of how sin came into the world. Satan tricked Eve, etc. But, do you think Satan was thrown out of heaven before the creation of man or after the creation of man?

~M-dith~

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Before. Some sense of a great revolt led by Satan and him kicked out. Prior to that he appeared to be in good standing with the rest the angels. For Satan to do what he did with Adam means he was already against God, which means the revolt had already occured.

 

[TwinCrier]

I agree, it appears to be before. Unfortunately there are many Christians who do not believe Satan is an actual being, or even Adam and Eve. Or even creation for that matter.

 

[mdith4him]

I'm not really sure which I believe, but just to give another viewpoint...

To me, it seems like Adam and Eve spent a fair amount of time in the garden. There seems to be some time that passed between the end of chapter 2 and the beginning of chapter 3. Chp. 2 ends with, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." Chp. 3 starts, "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made..." If there was a significant amount of time between these two chapters, couldn't Satan have been kicked out then? I also think Adam and Eve had to have spend some good amount of time in the garden because if they spent two days there and then got kicked out of the garden, it seems like they wouldn't really know what they were missing. When God told them they would have to work harder at growing crops and that women would have more childbearing pains, I think they must have experienced those thing before God made it more difficult. Maybe Eve had already had Cain and/or Able. Also, if Satan was kicked out before creation, and there is a time gap between chp. 2 and 3, why did he wait to talk to Eve?

Just some thoughts,
~M-dith~

 

[bebop]

Are you making the assumption that Lucifer is the serpent?

Or could it be that the serpent was one of the beasts that followed Lucifer? Not saying it is, but tradition can be wrong...

Job 2:1 Again the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord. 2:2 And the Lord said to Satan, "Where do you come from?" Satan answered the Lord, "From roving about on the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

It appear here that Satan had access to God during Job's time.

Revelations 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 12:8 But the dragon was not strong enough to prevail, so there was no longer any place left in heaven for him and his angels. 12:9 So that huge dragon—the ancient serpent, the one called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world—was thrown down to the earth, and his angels along with him.

It also appears that Lucifer is not cast down until Revelations. PS the "whole world" is better translated the "known universe".

 

[mdith4him]

Are you making the assumption that Lucifer is the serpent?

Or could it be that the serpent was one of the beasts that followed Lucifer? Not saying it is, but tradition can be wrong...

It appear here that Satan had access to God during Job's time.

It also appears that Lucifer is not cast down until Revelations. PS the "whole world" is better translated the "known universe".

Yes, I'm assuming Lucifer is the serpent. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't be true, but I'd be interested in any Scripture you can find that says otherwise.

satan did have access to God during the time of Job. His interaction with God is the key reason for Job's story.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last part...Lucifer was cast our of heaven some time around the creation of the world. He is the reason sin came into the world. If you're saying that he wasn't cast out until after Christ's death and resurrection, I'm going to have to seriously disagree with you. I think the verses you quoted from Revelation were talking about past events, not events that had just happened or were currently happening.

~M-dith~

 

[armothe]

I'm not convinced that the serpent is Satan either. The serpent is clearly mentioned as one of the smartest "beasts" God created.

The more I study it I'm finding the whole "Satan revolted and was cast out of heaven" theory lacking any biblical support.

-A

 

[James1979]

Rev. 12 talks about Satan being cast out after Christ had accomplished the work for his people salvation and was ascended up back to heaven and that's when Christ fought against the devil and the other angels and threw them out of heaven for good.

 

[California Tim]

I'm not sure what the confusion is, but Satan is said in the Bible to be in God's presence even now accusing all the believers for their transgressions before God. He has this "heavenly" access even after "rebelling" which is what put emnity between him and God before the Earth was created. In Revelation, (as this age comes to a conclusion) he will be permanently cast out of heaven and God's presence where he will spend eternity in the lake of fire with all the rest of creation who rejected Christ.

As far as Satan indwelling the serpent, it cannot be too hard to accept if one believes that any one of the fallen angels (demons) can possess humans and animals:

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. (Matthew 8:29-32)​

Notice also the indication by the demons that they knew of a distant "time of torment" appointed for them. It is important when facing the question of why we must deal with these fallen angels and Satan along with all the evil they bring to this day. They have a definite appointment with judgement, just not yet.

 

[James1979]

Wow California Tim, I'm glad you brought that out about the demons knew that there will be a Judgment Day and will be found guilty and be throw in the lake of fire forever more with the non-believers. Also I just learned that Eve lied about God told her to not touch or eat the fruit. But God only said don't eat and the law that says you shalt not bear false witness wasn't even in effect yet. Pretty amazing.