Beautiful thought to ponder.

[mkgal1]

I just read this article and thought it's a hopeful message:

As Bishop I am mindful of how deeply sin dwells, not just in society, but in my own heart. But I am also confident and hopeful because I know the power of God’s reconciliation, which for me is not some lofty idea but a theological truth. From a Biblical perspective, it is not so much that we need to be reconciled with one another, as it is that we are reconciled already–with God and with each other–as an act of sheer grace.

God has chosen solidarity with us so then with whom shall we show solidarity?

As Christians, we do not need to bring the Kingdom of God to earth. We just need to wake up to the great theological truth that in Jesus Christ God’s Kingdom is already here.


http://www.episcopalcafe.com/bishop...sin-and-solidarity-in-gods-reconciling-grace/

Any thoughts on this?

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Sort of goes against the teachings of some denominations and the while waiting for the end days thing.

But as with most things religious, if it helps one to deal with the state of the world and encourages goodness then carry on.

Btw, not exactly sure how this relates to married couples.

 

[WolfGate]

Sort of goes against the teachings of some denominations and the while waiting for the end days thing.

But as with most things religious, if it helps one to deal with the state of the world and encourages goodness then carry on.

Btw, not exactly sure how this relates to married couples.

You'll realize, with more observation, that this particular forum has a solid element of community rather than just being topical. Hence, you'll get topics that the author understands will be of interest to others who hang out in here, even if the tie to marriage doesn't appear to be direct.

 

[WolfGate]

I just read this article and thought it's a hopeful message:



Any thoughts on this?

I have to think about that one, Mkgal. My initial reaction is that the author is adding a step to what I recall the bible stated. Corinthians specifically states that the cross reconciled us to God - He alone has taken us from being essentially his enemy and made us His. Which He could do in his perfection and Holiness. Reconciled to each other? I don't recall that concept. The bible is also filled with instruction on how to settle disputes with each other - which at first thought supports that we still need to reconcile with each other.

 

[mkgal1]

Doesn't the Bible cover that (being in harmony with others---being of 'one mind')? That's how I interpret that quote. That if people set aside their selfish ambitions.....their pride....etc (on BOTH sides of the relationship)....then reconciliation is already there for them.

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly;[f] do not claim to be wiser than you are. Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.~Romans 12:16-18

Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love for one another, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or abuse for abuse; but, on the contrary, repay with a blessing. It is for this that you were called—that you might inherit a blessing. ~1st Peter 3:8-9

....those are a couple of verses that come to mind (Oh! And Acts.....there was unity/harmony/reconciliation there as well).

 

[WolfGate]

Doesn't the Bible cover that (being in harmony with others---being of 'one mind')? That's how I interpret that quote. That if people set aside their selfish ambitions.....their pride....etc (on BOTH sides of the relationship)....then reconciliation is already there for them.





....those are a couple of verses that come to mind (Oh! And Acts.....there was unity/harmony/reconciliation there as well).

Yes, IF they set aside selfish ambitions, etc., then reconciliation is there for them. However, that is an action they have to do.

The reconciliation we have with God is not the result of our actions, it is the grace of God. Again, as I'm seeing it now, the cross reconciled us to God by itself, it did not reconcile us to each other. That takes action on our part - hence so much conflict even within believers and inside the church. IMHO, the scriptures you quoted tell us how to reconcile among ourselves.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, IF they set aside selfish ambitions, etc., then reconciliation is there for them. However, that is an action they have to do.

I take that as the whole message---pointing out how possible that just is.

The reconciliation we have with God is not the result of our actions, it is the grace of God. Again, as I'm seeing it now, the cross reconciled us to God by itself, it did not reconcile us to each other. That takes action on our part - hence so much conflict even within believers and inside the church. IMHO, the scriptures you quoted tell us how to reconcile among ourselves.

But there is an attitude change.......correct? IOW.....not *everyone* accepts God's grace and is in relationship with Him.

I don't see the two as very different. I see it *all* as a matter of heart/attitude and motivations.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something you're trying to point out?

 

[sdmsanjose]

From a Biblical perspective, it is not so much that we need to be reconciled with one another, as it is that we are reconciled already–with God and with each other–as an act of sheer grace.

God’s grace that offers reconciliation is a great hope!!!


The other part of the article leaves me with a few questions:

We just need to wake up to the great theological truth that in Jesus Christ God’s Kingdom is already here.
So let us chose solidarity with Freddy Gray because black lives matter.[/QUOTE]

If the Bishop’s point is that Christ’s kingdom is already here and we need to remember that black lives matters then who can argue with that? That seems to be an insinuation that Christians do not believe that black lives matter. That may be true with some Americans but a true Christian with discernment would not think that black lives do not matter would they?

It is a Kingdom where Freddie Gray and the Boston police department already stand together reconciled under the foot of the cross, and where violence gives way to economic opportunity for all as “swords are beat into ploughshares” (Isaiah 2:4).

Our vocation as Christians is simple. We are to make real social change happen and to be a sign that points to God’s all-inclusive Kingdom where all people have access to education, health, relationships and meaningful work. This will in-turn repair the unjust structures within society

Economic opportunity is a great goal for a nation but what does that have to do with the death of Freddy Grey and the alleged police killing? Did the lack of economic opportunity prompt the police to kill (IF they did kill Freddy) Freddy? Did the lack of economic opportunity make the rioters’ burn down buildings belonging to innocent people and organizations including Christian organizations?


All efforts should continue to be made to give all Americans economic opportunity but do not use the excuse of lack of economic opportunity to riot, kill, or steal

 

[mkgal1]

The other part of the article leaves me with a few questions:

We just need to wake up to the great theological truth that in Jesus Christ God’s Kingdom is already here.
So let us chose solidarity with Freddy Gray because black lives matter.

If the Bishop’s point is that Christ’s kingdom is already here and we need to remember that black lives matters then who can argue with that? That seems to be an insinuation that Christians do not believe that black lives matter. That may be true with some Americans but a true Christian with discernment would not think that black lives do not matter would they?

That's what he's calling for (all)Christians to become ("true" Christians with discernment that believe we are all one as the human race/God's creation...and all matter). All it takes is for a few with power to *not* believe that for there to be unrest and strife. You know the saying: " a little leaven leavens the whole lump". I think that principle applies well to this.

He also wrote this:

Our vocation as Christians is simple. We are to make real social change happen and to be a sign that points to God’s all-inclusive Kingdom where all people have access to education, health, relationships and meaningful work. This will in-turn repair the unjust structures within society.
But let us not forget that real and lasting growth begins at the root. Transformation happens when we (as individuals) work on the sin that is in us and seek to live differently. Transformation happens when we see ourselves as members of the one, reconciled human family and begin working to repair the unjust structures within our own heart.~link

He used the "black lives matter".....but I also like how he elaborated by adding this as well:

I also stand in solidarity with God and I will show this solidarity by working for the greater good because life–every life–matters, and how we live matters, long before the living is done.~link

Economic opportunity is a great goal for a nation but what does that have to do with the death of Freddy Grey and the alleged police killing? Did the lack of economic opportunity prompt the police to kill (IF they did kill Freddy) Freddy? Did the lack of economic opportunity make the rioters’ burn down buildings belonging to innocent people and organizations including Christian organizations?


All efforts should continue to be made to give all Americans economic opportunity but do not use the excuse of lack of economic opportunity to riot, kill, or steal

I think that one of the most difficult element of this discussion is that there is much to unravel (and there's a LOT of emotion). I'm not sure if I want this discussion to get into specifics....but maybe to just suggest that there is a difficulty in reconciling groups of people that are in different social classes. IOW....for one that's economically privileged to actually *see* a homeless person as someone with more substance to them than what's immediately seen.

The lack of opportunity causes frustration....envy.....strife---unrest (lack of unity). But no.....it's not an excuse to riot, kill, or steal (and I don't believe this Bishop is suggesting that at all). That (to me) is a diversion from focusing on the real issues, though.

Just because some are using this as a reason to do all those things (and some need very little reason to do those things---look at what happens in major cities when sports teams win/lose.....it's the same response...so all that--IMO--should be taken out of the whole equation) doesn't mean we should turn away and not address the core issues.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by sdmsanjose

The other part of the article leaves me with a few questions:
We just need to wake up to the great theological truth that in Jesus Christ God’s Kingdom is already here.

So let us chose solidarity with Freddy Gray because black lives matter.

If the Bishop’s point is that Christ’s kingdom is already here and we need to remember that black lives matters then who can argue with that? That seems to be an insinuation that Christians do not believe that black lives matter. That may be true with some Americans but a true Christian with discernment would not think that black lives do not matter would they?

By MK
The way I interpret this article is that it's addressing the core issue of the unrest that's going on. That unrest has a root....but it's not because *all* white Christians are causing it (or whatever group anyone wishes to blame)....but we can't ignore that there *is* a root cause....right? He also wrote this:

Our vocation as Christians is simple. We are to make real social change happen and to be a sign that points to God’s all-inclusive Kingdom where all people have access to education, health, relationships and meaningful work. This will in-turn repair the unjust structures within society.

But let us not forget that real and lasting growth begins at the root. Transformation happens when we (as individuals) work on the sin that is in us and seek to live differently. Transformation happens when we see ourselves as members of the one, reconciled human family and begin working to repair the unjust structures within our own heart.


He used the "black lives matter".....but I also like how he added this as well:

I also stand in solidarity with God and I will show this solidarity by working for the greater good because life–every life–matters, and how we live matters, long before the living is done.

Yes MK there are root causes and some of those root causes are racism and injustice. There is no doubt in my mind that those that are in power to administer justice violate both at times. We have seen this with Rodney King where the police and the court system both failed. It may very well be that the Baltimore police have violated both issues; the one of racism and the one of violating justice; we will have to wait and see what the facts show.

Transformation happens when we (as individuals) work on the sin that is in us and seek to live differently….. working to repair the unjust structures within our own heart…. because life–every life–matters, and how we live matters, long before the living is done.

The above quotes are right on and very good reminders.



Economic opportunity is a great goal for a nation but what does that have to do with the death of Freddy Grey and the alleged police killing? Did the lack of economic opportunity prompt the police to kill (IF they did kill Freddy) Freddy? Did the lack of economic opportunity make the rioters’ burn down buildings belonging to innocent people and organizations including Christian organizations?


All efforts should continue to be made to give all Americans economic opportunity but do not use the excuse of lack of economic opportunity to riot, kill, or steal

I think that one of the most difficult element of this discussion is that there is much to unravel (and there's a LOT of emotion). I'm not sure if I want this discussion to get into specifics....but maybe to just suggest that there is a difficulty in reconciling groups of people that are in different social classes. IOW....for one that's economically privileged to actually *see* a homeless person as someone with more substance to them than what's immediately seen.

The lack of opportunity causes frustration....envy.....strife---unrest (lack of unity). But no.....it's not an excuse to riot, kill, or steal (and I don't believe this Bishop is suggesting that at all). That (to me) is a diversion from focusing on the real issues, though.

Just because some are using this as a reason to do all those things (and some need very little reason to do those things---look at what happens in major cities when sports teams win/lose.....it's the same response...so all that--IMO--should be taken out of the whole equation) doesn't mean we should turn away and not address the core issues.

You are right MK this is a very emotional issue and when the subject is brought up I cannot help but remember those scenes of riot, killing, and stealing. There are at least two issues with this Baltimore situation; one is the “core issues” as you have pointed out and then there is the other that is rioting. You brought one issue and I brought the other and neither of us has turned away from either issue. We just brought up two issues that are prevalent in this situation. However, this is your thread so I will not post anymore about the rioting on your thread.

The article that you posted has some very good reminders for us in them and I can see that you want to keep those reminders as the main topic. There is no doubt that the Bishop has touched on some of the core issues and brought a Christian prospective to the front.

The rioting, stealing, and killing is not the main theme of the article so I will save that for another thread.

 

[mkgal1]

Chip Ingram did an excellent Bible study on division (and that's one of our enemy's favorite tactics---to divide and conquer). The book of Acts is a great place to see an example of how things typically unravel. This is how the people of the early church were described early on in Acts (in the 2nd chapter):

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.

and in the 4th chapter we read:

'the whole group of believers were of one heart and mind’ (Acts 4:32)

Then---by chapter 6, we read this of them:

In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews[a] among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.

.....and that's where the disunity began (with the unequal treatment/portions).