Beat to death with shoelaces...

[PapaLandShark]

Interesting article...Of particular interest to me is this quote towards the bottom:

Still, Kasper suggested in Geneva it would be easier for the Catholic Church to reach agreement with Orthodox churches than with the Protestant denominations that emerged after the 16th century Reformation in Europe.

http://www.eni.ch/articles/display.shtml?05-0885

 

[Jon_]

Interesting article...Of particular interest to me is this quote towards the bottom:

Really all the Catholic church would have to do is get rid of the Filioque. If they did that, they could probably reintegrate the Orthodox Church. I mean, not that it matters one way or the other...

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

Really all the Catholic church would have to do is get rid of the Filioque. If they did that, they could probably reintegrate the Orthodox Church. I mean, not that it matters one way or the other...

sorry to sound rude, but that's a load of rubbish. 1. it would be the Orthodox Church receiving the Catholic church back into her communion. 2. the Catholic church holds to many other beliefs beside the filioque which are heresies in the opinion of the Orthodox, including the immaculate conception of Mary, papal supremacy, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, defining the nature of Christ's presence in the Eucharist, &c. &c. &c.

 

[Jon_]

sorry to sound rude, but that's a load of rubbish. 1. it would be the Orthodox Church receiving the Catholic church back into her communion. 2. the Catholic church holds to many other beliefs beside the filioque which are heresies in the opinion of the Orthodox, including the immaculate conception of Mary, papal supremacy, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, defining the nature of Christ's presence in the Eucharist, &c. &c. &c.

Well, we have differing sources, then. I've gotten this straight from the horse's mouth on more than one occasion. Maybe American Orthodox are different, but they see the other things are "addressable" or "relatively minor."

As to the Catholic church bring received back into the Orthodox church, well that whole arrangement is nothing more than where your bias lies. If you favor one, then obviously you'll say the other must rejoin. I mean, you clearly have Orthodox tendencies, so I don't find it surprising you react this way.

I also think you're too Protestant to be Orthodox, though. Even when you try.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

Well, we have differing sources, then. I've gotten this straight from the horse's mouth on more than one occasion. Maybe American Orthodox are different, but they see the other things are "addressable" or "relatively minor."

As to the Catholic church bring received back into the Orthodox church, well that whole arrangement is nothing more than where your bias lies. If you favor one, then obviously you'll say the other must rejoin. I mean, you clearly have Orthodox tendencies, so I don't find it surprising you react this way.

I also think you're too Protestant to be Orthodox, though. Even when you try.

i'm surprised at how well you know me. I do have Orthodox tendencies, but Protestantism is also too ingrained into me for me to be Eastern Orthodox.
the Orthodox will never, and I mean, never, accept the Catholic Church with its current heresies. along with the filioque (not really for theological reasons as much as the Pope's unauthorized change of the creed), the Pope is THE major stumbling-block, most other things are minor issues, "theological teaching", just differences in interpretation. it's because they've been defined as dogma that they have become problems.

 

[Jon_]

i'm surprised at how well you know me. I do have Orthodox tendencies, but Protestantism is also too ingrained into me for me to be Eastern Orthodox.

And not that that's a bad thing! It's better to be more Protestant than Orthodox.

the Orthodox will never, and I mean, never, accept the Catholic Church with its current heresies. along with the filioque (not really for theological reasons as much as the Pope's unauthorized change of the creed), the Pope is THE major stumbling-block, most other things are minor issues, "theological teaching", just differences in interpretation. it's because they've been defined as dogma that they have become problems.

Yeah, I think it's unimaginable that any one would want to submit to the Pope. I mean, the very term "Vicar of Christ," literally means, "Substitute of Christ." The latin word "vicar" means substitute. What the heck!?! Is that not precisely what the Antichrist will parade himself as? A substitute for Christ?

(A note to our totalitarian friends in the CPRC, this should not be construed as an accusation that the pontiff is the Antichrist, but that his own appointed title shares commonality with the Antichrist's.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

And not that that's a bad thing! It's better to be more Protestant than Orthodox.

if we had an orthodox lutheran church such as the LCMS here, i might consider that. I tend to agree with them on a lot of key issues.

Yeah, I think it's unimaginable that any one would want to submit to the Pope. I mean, the very term "Vicar of Christ," literally means, "Substitute of Christ." The latin word "vicar" means substitute. What the heck!?! Is that not precisely what the Antichrist will parade himself as? A substitute for Christ?

i often hear this argument for the pope as the antichrist.

 

[erin74]

The anglicans (on CF) seem to think the biggest hurdle we have in reuniting with the catholic church (both rc and eo) is women's ordination. I think it might be the first time I have been thankful for women's ordination. That aside, I think surely there are bigger problems than just that. Also it seems to me that they are hell bent on being accepted, and are not thinking about the practices of those who are doing the supposed accepting.

also - what is filioque. I am assuming something, but just want to be sure before I make myself look like a bigger idiot than necessary.

 

[lmnop9876]

filioque = Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son"

 

[erin74]

Ok - so it's not what I thought it might be. Can someone expand on the issue at hand. What does this imply, and who has a problem with what?

 

[lmnop9876]

Ok - so it's not what I thought it might be. Can someone expand on the issue at hand. What does this imply, and who has a problem with what?

the Orthodox have a problem with it, not necessarily because it's wrong theologically, but because the Pope tried to change the Nicene Creed without an ecumenical council. it was the final straw in a long, drawn-out battle against papal supremacy, and resulted in the great schism of 1054.

 

[erin74]

is it wrong theologically?

 

[Jon_]

is it wrong theologically?

The Filioque? No, it is correct.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[erin74]

Oh good - I thought it sounded fine, but wasn't sure if there was some intricacy (sp??) I was missing. So does that mean the nicene creed is wrong? Or did the pope change it and we all accepted it?

And does that mean the orthodox church is being pigheaded by still having a problem even though they theologically don't disagree with it.... surely there is more to it than that?

 

[lmnop9876]

The Filioque? No, it is correct

depends what you mean by it. St. Augustine and St. Ambroses' meaning of it is pretty similar to saying the Spirit proceeds from the Father "by the Son." St. Augustine says that the Spirit "principally proceeds" from the Father, and His procession from the Son is a gift that the Father gives the Son.