Bathsheba

oh man oh man do I find this interpretation . . . creative https://torahideals.com/essays-and-imaginings/david-and-bathsheba/

PloverWing said:

Does anyone know: Does this represent mainstream Jewish thought on the story? Or is Rabbi Goldson the Jewish equivalent of our Bishop Spong,

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Yes, it is mainstream among the Orthodox and ultra orthodox. I have read it several times, but without the legal machinations used to arrive at that conclusion.

Premeditation places it outside of being of God's own heart when the premeditation was against God's revealed will.

This popped up on my FB, considering the same issues: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/women-bible-say-metoo

Paidiske said:

This popped up on my FB, considering the same issues: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/women-bible-say-metoo

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David was great when he was a warrior, but when he took the throne he crashed and failed in pretty much every way, including being a father.

That probably has something to do with "king" as a basic concept not being in God's plan for Israel.

Paidiske said:

This popped up on my FB, considering the same issues: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/women-bible-say-metoo

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Wow. Interesting article.

It kind of speaks to the situation at my last congregation that made me decide to leave.

RDKirk said:

David was great when he was a warrior, but when he took the throne he crashed and failed in pretty much every way, including being a father.

That probably has something to do with "king" as a basic concept not being in God's plan for Israel.

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Out of all the kings of Israel and divided Israel, there were very few who had been proclaimed "good" in God's eyes, and none from Northern Israel. Seems like the king concept was a huge failure overall.

The article mentioned the Sodom and Gomorrah story and Lot's daughters. Even before I knew what homosexuality was, I never really thought of that story having much to do with homosexuality. It was always more about rape. First they wanted to rape the male guests and then Lot offered his daughters up for rape.

It also makes me wonder if the only real reason that Lot and his family was saved was for Abraham's sake and not because Lot was a good man on his own. Yes, I've read about all the claims about hospitality and that Lot didn't have any other choice, but it tends to ring false with me. He seems just as depraved as the rest of the town to think that what he decided to do was acceptable. Maybe he should have offered himself to the mob if he was going to offer anyone to them.

bekkilyn said:

Out of all the kings of Israel and divided Israel, there were very few who had been proclaimed "good" in God's eyes, and none from Northern Israel. Seems like the king concept was a huge failure overall.

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Every king failed in some monumental manner. Even the best two kings, Josiah and Hezekiah, each made a serious error that led directly to the Captivity.

When we are doing things against God's instructions all the prayer in the world is nothing but damage control. If our way would be as successful as His way, God would have given that instruction the first time. Prayer is not a factor--He expected us to pray anyway, even doing things His way.

For instance, take the circumstance of Joshua leading Israael's army against Ai, right after their stunning victory in Jericho. Did they pray beforehand as usual? Yes. Were the priests carrying the Ark of the Covenant before them as usual? Yes.

But they got thoroughly whipped at Ai...because one soldier was doing it wrong--he had taken contraband from Jericho.

The article mentioned the Sodom and Gomorrah story and Lot's daughters. Even before I knew what homosexuality was, I never really thought of that story having much to do with homosexuality. It was always more about rape. First they wanted to rape the male guests and then Lot offered his daughters up for rape.

It also makes me wonder if the only real reason that Lot and his family was saved was for Abraham's sake and not because Lot was a good man on his own. Yes, I've read about all the claims about hospitality and that Lot didn't have any other choice, but it tends to ring false with me. He seems just as depraved as the rest of the town to think that what he decided to do was acceptable. Maybe he should have offered himself to the mob if he was going to offer anyone to them.

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Homosexuality was less significant than the threat of rape itself (and, btw, note the similarity between this situation and Judges 19). What we later read about God's condemnation of Sodom:

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." -- Ezekiel 16

A couple of things here. Note that God calls Sodom a sister of Israel. That's an equal condemnation, considering He had utterly destroyed Sodom.

Note also that God repeatedly condemned Israel for its failure to care for their poor and needy (such as in Isaiah 3: “For you have eaten up the vineyard; the plunder of the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?” says the Lord God of hosts.)

God equated the sin of Israel with that of Sodom, citing refusal to help the poor and needy as the equalizing factor. Yes, there was homosexuality going on in Sodom, and yes, probably more than was going on in Israel, but God clearly prioritized hard-heartedness as the sin that made them equally evil, regardless what other sins Israel might not have been doing (such as homosexuality).

If a nation is hard-hearted towards it poor, it doesn't make any difference to God how "righteous" they may act in other regards.

RDKirk said:

If a nation is hard-hearted towards it poor, it doesn't make any difference to God how "righteous" they may act in other regards.

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Very true.

I do wish conservative evangelicals understood that point.

PloverWing said:

I have come to that conclusion as well, partly through reflecting on Abraham's argument with God. Abraham argues with God until they agree that the city will be spared if there are 10 righteous people. If you count up Lot, his wife, his daughters, whatever household servants or extended family they had, it probably comes to 10. And the city wasn't spared. So I suspect that Lot was indeed saved for Abraham's sake.

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That is probably one of the four or five most remarkable stories in the bible, or at least in the OT.

So the Lord drops by the home of His buddy Abraham just to "do lunch." No other reason.

whenever God paid a visit to anyone else, it was always to levy some kind of heavy command or punishment or something like that.

But here, the Lord is just there to do lunch and jibber-jabber a while. He had nothing for Abraham to do. Just killing a bit of time with His buddy.

Oh, and He mentioned He hadn't forgotten about that favor He'd promised about a son for Abraham and Sarah. Then He joshed with Sarah a bit about it.

Finally, the Lord decides to let His buddy Abraham in on His own future business. The Lord reasoned, "Abe's my BFF...why shouldn't I tell him about my business?"

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. -- John 15

The first remarkable thing is the uncertain way the Lord expressed what He of course knew He would ultimately do.

The Lord spoke about Sodom to Abraham in terms of "I heard" and "if it's true," as though He wasn't omniscient, or as though His angels were unreliable reporters.

But by speaking in uncertain terms rather than absolutes, the Lord was giving Abraham an opening to continue a back-and-forth dialog. The Lord was giving Abraham room to express an opinion.

And this is even more remarkable--Abraham actually admonished the Lord. Certainly he was respectful and cautious in his wording, but Abraham said in essence, "I don't think your idea is a good one, Lord, because if you do things that way, it will look bad on you."

And the Lord actually accepted Abraham's advice! Wow.

Of course, the Lord knew what He was actually going to wind up doing--he wouldn't find 10 righteous men in Sodom (especially since righteousness is only credited through faith in Him). But He let Abraham have a feel-good moment...just because they were buddies.