Basic YEC vs. Advanced YEC

[jereth]

Dear Creationists,

There is something I'd like to learn about the Creationist community, and I hope you'll kindly help me.

It seems to me that a Young Earth Creationist is basically someone who holds to 3 core convictions:
A. Genesis 1-3 are literal history, depicting an actual week of creation.
B. Adam and Eve were the first human couple, and all humans are descendants of them.
C. A global flood (described in Genesis 6-9) is responsible for creating the fossil record, and otherwise giving the earth "an appearance of age".

On top of these basic convictions, it appears that many other teachings and ideas have been developed by popular Creationist organisations such as Answers in Genesis. I know this because I subscribed to AiG for 2 years when I was a Creationist, and I own a copy of their "Answers Book". So I would say that as well as "Basic" YEC, there are forms of "Advanced" YEC with a more complex, developed system of belief. Many of these extra beliefs are scientifically derived as well biblical/theological.

I'd like to know which out of these "Advanced" list of beliefs are commonly held. Please vote in the poll above.

1. No animals died before the fall, and there was no predatory activity before the fall. Humans and animals were vegetarian before the fall.
2. Some higher animals (eg. vertebrates) are "nephesh" animals, while other lower animals are "non-nephesh". The latter may have died before the fall.
3. There were no rose thorns (or other causes of pain) before the fall.
4. During Noah's flood, catastrophic plate tectonics occurred: rapid continental drift, folding of mountains, volcanic activity, etc.
5. Dinosaurs were still alive at the time of Noah, and were taken aboard the ark. They became extinct after the Flood. Stories of "dragons" and "loch-ness monsters" stem from a common human experience of dinosaurs from the past.
6. The Ice Age happened after the Flood, about 4500 years ago.
7. Homo erectus (as well as Neanderthals and other extinct hominids) were in fact human beings, descended from Adam and Eve.
8. The earth was inside a white hole during creation week, therefore time passed much quicker outside, giving light time to travel billions of light years to Earth from distant galaxies.
9. Cain married his sister, because there were no other females around at his time.

There are others I could add, but only 10 options possible in a poll so I chose the most prominent.

Would TEs please refrain from debating any of these points. This is an opportunity for YECs to tell us what they think.

Thanks
Jereth

 

[Buho]

I voted yes for all except roses and that gravity thing. The last is highly speculative and although it's been defended to some degree, I'm not confident in it yet. The former I'd probably agree to except you are very specific in "roses" and I waver at that, since the Bible didn't mention roses specifically.

The nepesh thing took me a bit to remember, but yeah, things like insects appear to be treated differently in scripture than vertibrates. Not sure why. I read recently an author who speculated that vertibrate animals have a soul (but do not retain it upon death as we do). Possibly insects don't have a soul? Very speculative stuff, but I checked nepesh vs non-nepesh because you worded it generally enough and I affirm (without scripture ATM) that the distinction exists.

 

[jereth]

The former I'd probably agree to except you are very specific in "roses" and I waver at that, since the Bible didn't mention roses specifically.

FYI: AiG bases this teaching on the phrase in the curse that "thorns and thistles will be produced" (Genesis 3)

Thanks for voting.

 

[charityagape]

Dear Creationists,

There is something I'd like to learn about the Creationist community, and I hope you'll kindly help me.

It seems to me that a Young Earth Creationist is basically someone who holds to 3 core convictions:
A. Genesis 1-3 are literal history, depicting an actual week of creation.
B. Adam and Eve were the first human couple, and all humans are descendants of them.

A and B I agree with, following a literal interpretation of the bible.

C. A global flood (described in Genesis 6-9) is responsible for creating the fossil record, and otherwise giving the earth "an appearance of age".

As written, I can't fully agree with C. I believe there was a global flood (as written) however, I can really speak to the age of the earth or the fossil record.

On top of these basic convictions, it appears that many other teachings and ideas have been developed by popular Creationist organisations such as Answers in Genesis. I know this because I subscribed to AiG for 2 years when I was a Creationist, and I own a copy of their "Answers Book". So I would say that as well as "Basic" YEC, there are forms of "Advanced" YEC with a more complex, developed system of belief. Many of these extra beliefs are scientifically derived as well biblical/theological.

I'd like to know which out of these "Advanced" list of beliefs are commonly held. Please vote in the poll above.

1. No animals died before the fall, and there was no predatory activity before the fall. Humans and animals were vegetarian before the fall.
2. Some higher animals (eg. vertebrates) are "nephesh" animals, while other lower animals are "non-nephesh". The latter may have died before the fall.
3. There were no rose thorns (or other causes of pain) before the fall.
4. During Noah's flood, catastrophic plate tectonics occurred: rapid continental drift, folding of mountains, volcanic activity, etc.
5. Dinosaurs were still alive at the time of Noah, and were taken aboard the ark. They became extinct after the Flood. Stories of "dragons" and "loch-ness monsters" stem from a common human experience of dinosaurs from the past.
6. The Ice Age happened after the Flood, about 4500 years ago.
7. Homo erectus (as well as Neanderthals and other extinct hominids) were in fact human beings, descended from Adam and Eve.
8. The earth was inside a white hole during creation week, therefore time passed much quicker outside, giving light time to travel billions of light years to Earth from distant galaxies.
9. Cain married his sister, because there were no other females around at his time.

There are others I could add, but only 10 options possible in a poll so I chose the most prominent.

Would TEs please refrain from debating any of these points. This is an opportunity for YECs to tell us what they think.

Thanks
Jereth

As for the above, the only one I could believe in certainty is #9. Again, because it's written. The others are interesting suggestions but the bible doesn't really suggest them. I think its a case of creationists trying to fit something too big; God's understanding, God's how, God's why, etc, into something too small; man's understand, man's how, man's why, etc.
A literal belief in a six day creation has to be taken completely on faith that what God said, God meant.

 

[Breetai]

So you now reject a literal flood, literal Adam and Eve, that death came into the world through sin, etc.?

Why?

 

[Ave Maria]

I didn't know what many of those options were so I left a bunch of them out. What on earth is "Nephesh" anyway? Sorry, I'm a bit new to the Creationism thing.

 

[Chief117]

Well, I too would like an explanation on some of these items. However, I can defend some of them, so here I will (since you asked and I want everyone to know):

A. Genesis 1-3 are literal history, depicting an actual week of creation.
B. Adam and Eve were the first human couple, and all humans are descendants of them.

This is the suggestion of the Scripture itself. All evidence points to a literal history, not a metaphorical interpretation.

C. A global flood (described in Genesis 6-9) is responsible for creating the fossil record, and otherwise giving the earth "an appearance of age".

The same as above except for the part added by the OP in regards to age. Any "appearance of age" is the interpretation of others. One need not interpret any age into the earth.

However, what I think he means is that the flood would have stratified rock layers and possibly hydro-sorted fossils--which are 2 of the big players in how Old Agers get their millions-of-years in the earth. Yes, I believe the flood would have done this.

1. No animals died before the fall, and there was no predatory activity before the fall. Humans and animals were vegetarian before the fall.

This stems from the following Scriptures:

Then God said, "I give you [man] every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. [And He did likewise for] all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it..."
Genesis 1:29-30

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin...
Romans 5:12

First of all, Genesis says all animals were vegetarians (Gen 1:29-30), and secondly the NT confirms that death came to the world through Adam's sin.

2. Some higher animals (eg. vertebrates) are "nephesh" animals, while other lower animals are "non-nephesh". The latter may have died before the fall.

I have no idea what this one is about. Sorry...

3. There were no rose thorns (or other causes of pain) before the fall.

I'm iffy on this one. You have already supported this 2 posts or so above. I can't do any better.

4. During Noah's flood, catastrophic plate tectonics occurred: rapid continental drift, folding of mountains, volcanic activity, etc.

I'd have to do a lot of searching to find the Biblical references to this one. Here is what I remember:

...on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth...
Genesis 7:11

This to me sounds like the ground burst and water from below the ground came up to flood the earth.

The mountains rose; the valleys sank down to the place which You established for them.
Psalm 104:7

The flood waters did not have to be high enough to cover today's mountains because they did not have to be as high. At the end of the flood, the mountains rose and the valleys sank. The Bible supports this.

5. Dinosaurs were still alive at the time of Noah, and were taken aboard the ark. They became extinct after the Flood. Stories of "dragons" and "loch-ness monsters" stem from a common human experience of dinosaurs from the past.

This is not explicitly stated in Scripture but is the result of scientific evidence for dinosaurs and belief in a Creation.

The Bible makes several reference to what the KJV translaters called "dragons." The word appears several times in Scripture.

Much evidence exists that dinosaurs lived with man. For example, check these out: Genesis Park

I believe the Behemoth of Job 40 is a sauropod and that the creature of Job 41 is also a dinosaur (no idea which one).

6. The Ice Age happened after the Flood, about 4500 years ago.

Again, something not mentioned in Scripture. Flood models provide the necessary conditions for an ice age, and since I do not deny the scientific evidence that some sort of ice age happened, I believe that #6 is true.

7. Homo erectus (as well as Neanderthals and other extinct hominids) were in fact human beings, descended from Adam and Eve.

I do not believe in any "Ape-men" or such "transitional forms" from ape to human. I believe most are misinterpreted--Neanderthal was likely an old man with a hunchback.

The bones in the face never stop growing (especially the brow ridge--anyone who knew my grandpa could confirm that). In addition, the Bible says that some men lived to be several hundred years old--plenty of time to hunch over and look like a "neanderthal".

All humans are descended from Adam and Eve (Genesis 1).

8. The earth was inside a white hole during creation week, therefore time passed much quicker outside, giving light time to travel billions of light years to Earth from distant galaxies.

I do not know exactly what you're talking about here. My best guess is the hypothesis that general relativity solves our young earth problem of star light from distant stars.

I don't know much about it and would like more details if anyone has any. But...I've never even heard of a white hole.

9. Cain married his sister, because there were no other females around at his time.

This is said nearly explicitly in Scripture....If not his sister, then at least a close relative.

Here is why this is not a problem: The only reason we cannot marry close relatives today is because each of us today has several mutational defects in our genes. 6,000 years of a cursed creation has caused our genetic code to gather defects. By marrying a distant relative (as we all are physically related), we decrease the chances that a child will receive the same defect from both parents. Distance in relation means you're more likely to "cover" for a defect from the other spouse.

However, 6,000 years ago there would have been no defects (God created man and said, "this is good") and thus no risk for close-relation defects and child deformations. This is how the earth was populated.

God didn't make it unlawful to marry a close relation until the Mosaic Law because it wasn't needed.

Hope that helps someeone out there.

God Bless.

 

[jereth]

Thanks for your detailed response Chief117.

I have no idea what this one is about. Sorry...

nephesh is the Hebrew word commonly translated "soul". AiG teaches that large, intelligent animals did not die before the Fall, but small primitive creatures such as worms, prawns and insects may have died even in a sinless/perfect world. The way they explain this is by hypothesising that the large animals (dogs, sheep, bears, cows, etc.) have a nephesh, but insects/worms did not have a nephesh and are therefore more like plants.

See: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/bad_things.asp

I do not know exactly what you're talking about here. My best guess is the hypothesis that general relativity solves our young earth problem of star light from distant stars.

I don't know much about it and would like more details if anyone has any. But...I've never even heard of a white hole.

This is AiG's latest theory to solve the problem of distant starlight. See: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

This is AiG's latest theory to solve the problem of distant starlight. See: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp

I wouldn't say it's AIG's theory. Some people at AIG would follow that theory while others would follow other theories. Don't think that the scientists at AIG all think alike.

 

[Chief117]

Thanks for your detailed response Chief117.



nephesh is the Hebrew word commonly translated "soul". AiG teaches that large, intelligent animals did not die before the Fall, but small primitive creatures such as worms, prawns and insects may have died even in a sinless/perfect world. The way they explain this is by hypothesising that the large animals (dogs, sheep, bears, cows, etc.) have a nephesh, but insects/worms did not have a nephesh and are therefore more like plants.

See: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/bad_things.asp



This is AiG's latest theory to solve the problem of distant starlight. See: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp

Hey--I appreciate the clarification. I had never heard the nephesh theory before. Very interesting.

Thanks for the help.

 

[sjdennis]

I would agree with pretty well all of them, except for no. 8

8. The earth was inside a white hole during creation week, therefore time passed much quicker outside, giving light time to travel billions of light years to Earth from distant galaxies.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, however many different theories have been proposed to explain the starlight problem. This is only one of them. It may or may not be correct. Like many scientific theories, it is likely to be partially true and also contain some errors. I cannot completely agree with something so speculative, but can accept it as a reasonable explanation that shows that the starlight issue is not an insurmountable problem for YEC.