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Barker vs Wilson: Does the Triune God Exist?

JM

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Who is who. My wife and I will definitely listen, she's on a binge because of the JWs.

Wilson is a Christian presuppositionalist. Barker is a former evangelist now atheist.

jm
 
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JM

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Wow. He (the Christian) said God "created evil." I've toyed with the idea, but I prefer not to go that far as the Church has traditionally denounced it.

My wife and I enjoyed the debate, thanks for posting.

Happy to hear. God is the author of all...but not guilty of sin.
 
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abacabb3

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My friend Anthony (BeforetheFoundationsoftheearth.com) just reflected on how God didn't make disease, bad weather, and other bad things out of maliciousness. They are all just penalties for sin. In fact, they are less bad than the sin deserves. God is indeed gracious to all men...He is the savior of all men, especially believers.
 
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sdowney717

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The way I view this is, Christ makes the tree good so it then bears good fruit by it's nature.
Or Christ makes the tree bad and it will bear it's own bad fruit, by it's nature.

So God makes the tree either good or bad, but the tree bears the fruit. God did not bear the bad fruit for the bad tree, the bad tree made it's own bad fruit as it must by it's nature. In the case of men, unregenerate, bring forth from the heart bad fruit, their sins which they do, God did not sin for them.

And those filled with the Holy Spirit, the good men, produce good fruit. Now good works though are prepared beforehand for us to walk in. So bad men commit sins that they do by their fallen natures having evil thoughts and evil hearts, while good men fashioned and transformed to be like His Son bear good fruit and do good works with God's aid.

Now Christ created all things, so you cant say He just wound up the clock and let it run. Everything God makes exist for His purpose as it is designed to be.

Matt 12

A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
 
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abacabb3

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Barker's counter argument would be that in Gen 1, everything was "very good." So, if God made everything very good, where did the bad things come from?

The simple answer is that it was a just (and good) punishment for sin, and sin contaminated everything along with it.

This then begs the extra-biblical question, why would God let it happen? Then you get all sorts of answers (He was asleep at the wheel when Satan was doing his thing, "free will" even though that does not explain why God wouldn't destroy Satan first.)

Reformed Theology, the theology of Augustine, Clement, Paul and Jesus gets it right. God preordained the occurrence of these things for good reasons and His own glory. Interestingly enough, that is the only answer the Bible gives.
 
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gord44

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The OT text, without Christian influence, seems to point to satan as God's loyal servant. Doing what God needs done. I did a study once on why Judaism and Christianity are so far apart and their view on satan was one of the items they differed severely on. To many in Judaism, satan doesn't even have free will.
 
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gord44

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I always saw God as fully in control of that situation. Satan suggests that Job’s righteousness was not fully tested. He argues that Job might lose his faith if he were confronted by personal pain and utter destitution. He proposes to God that Job serves Him simply because God protects him. Satan requested permission from God to test Job’s virtue. The Almighty grants this petition; however, He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when testing Job. Satan obediently follows his Creator’s instructions.
 
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abacabb3

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I always saw God as fully in control of that situation. Satan suggests that Job’s righteousness was not fully tested. He argues that Job might lose his faith if he were confronted by personal pain and utter destitution. He proposes to God that Job serves Him simply because God protects him. Satan requested permission from God to test Job’s virtue. The Almighty grants this petition; however, He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when testing Job. Satan obediently follows his Creator’s instructions.

Is it obedience or that he literally can't go past the "hedge" God has placed around Job?
 
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JM

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Is it obedience or that he literally can't go past the "hedge" God has placed around Job?

Why not both?

He literally can't go past because God has not given him the go head and therefore...it's a matter of obedience.


All things in time are purposed from eternity, including evil...which find there decree in God.

God, as the primary and efficient cause of all things, is not only the Author of those actions done by His elect as actions, but also as they are good actions, whereas, on the other hand, though He may be said to be the Author of all the actions done by the wicked, yet He is not the Author of them in a moral and compound sense as they are sinful; but physically, simply and sensu diviso as they are mere actions, abstractedly from all consideration of the goodness or badness of them.

Although there is no action whatever which is not in some sense either good or bad, yet we can easily conceive of an action, purely as such, without adverting to the quality of it, so that the distinction between an action itself and its denomination of good or evil is very obvious and natural.

In and by the elect, therefore, God not only produces works and actions through His almighty power, but likewise, through the salutary influences of His Spirit, first makes their persons good, and then their actions so too; but, in and by the reprobate, He produces actions by His power alone, which actions, as neither issuing from faith nor being wrought with a view to the Divine glory, nor done in the manner prescribed by the Divine Word, are, on these accounts, properly denominated evil. Hence we see that God does not, immediately and per se, infuse iniquity into the wicked; but, as Luther expresses it, powerfully excites them to action, and withholds those gracious influences of His Spirit, without which every action is necessarily evil. That God either directly or remotely excites bad men as well as good ones to action cannot be denied by any but Atheists, or by those who carry their notions of free-will and human independency so high as to exclude the Deity from all actual operation in and among His creatures, which is little short of Atheism. Every work performed, whether good or evil, is done in strength and by the power derived immediately from God Himself, “in whom all men live, move, and have their being” (Acts 17.28). As, at first, without Him was not anything made which was made, so, now, without Him is not anything done which is done. We have no power or faculty, whether corporal or intellectual, but what we received from God, subsists by Him, and is exercised in subserviency to His will and appointment. It is He who created, preserves, actuates and directs all things. But it by no means follows, from these premises, that God is therefore the cause of sin, for sin is nothing but auomia, illegality, want of conformity to the Divine law (1 John 3.4), a mere privation of rectitude; consequently, being itself a thing purely negative, it can have no positive or efficient cause, but only a negative and deficient one.

and
That God often lets the wicked go on to more ungodliness, which He does (a) negatively by withholding that grace which alone can restrain them from evil; (b) remotely, by the providential concourse and mediation of second causes, which second causes, meeting and acting in concert with the corruption of the reprobate’s unregenerate nature, produce sinful effects; (c) judicially, or in a way of judgment. “The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of waters; He turneth it whithersoever He will” (Prov. 21.1); and if the King’s heart, why not the hearts of all men? “Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lam. 3.38). Hence we find that the Lord bid Shimei curse David (2 Sam. 16.10); that He moved David himself to number the people (compare 1 Chron. 21.1 with 2 Sam. 24.1); stirred up Joseph’s brethren to sell him into Egypt (Genesis 50.20); positively and immediately hardened the heart of Pharaoh (Exod. 4.21); delivered up David’s wives to be defiled by Absalom (2 Sam. 12.11; 16.22); sent a lying spirit to deceive Ahab (1 Kings 22.20-23), and mingled a perverse spirit in the midst of Egypt, that is, made that nation perverse, obdurate and stiff-necked (Isa. 19.14). To cite other instances would be almost endless, and after these, quite unnecessary, all being summed up in that express passage, “I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45.7). See farther, 1 Sam. 16.14; Psalm 105.25; Jer. 13.12,13; Acts 2.23, & 4.28; Rom. 11.8; 2 Thess. 2.11, every one of which implies more than a bare permission of sin. Bucer asserts this, not only in the place referred to below, but continually throughout his works, particularly on Matt. 6. § 2, where this is the sense of his comments on that petition, “Lead us not into temptation”: “It is abundantly evident, from most express testimonies of Scripture, that God, occasionally in the course of His providence, puts both elect and reprobate persons into circumstances of temptation, by which temptation are meant not only those trials that are of an outward, afflictive nature, but those also that are inward and spiritual, even such as shall cause the persons so tempted actually to turn aside from the path of duty, to commit sin, and involve both themselves and others in evil. Hence we find the elect complaining, ‘O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our hearts from Thy fear?’ (Isaiah 63.17). But there is also a kind of temptation, which is peculiar to the non-elect, whereby God, in a way of just judgment, makes them totally blind and obdurate, inasmuch as they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” (See also his exposition of Rom. 9.)​

...Gill brings out the point that Isa. 45.7 is speaking of the evil involved in the punishment for sin which includes "afflictions, adversities, and calamities" which are delivered by God on sinful humanity. The note from the Geneva Bible on this issue reads, "I send peace and war, prosperity and adversity, as in (Amo_3:6)." This verse means "evil" but not "sin" which I think people get hung up on.

Gilbert Beebe echos Gill:
But the term evil as used in our text we understand to mean judgments, calamities, afflictions and chastisements which are sent upon the children of men. They come not up out of the ground, nor do they fall upon us by chance. God’s careful providence watches over us, and no evil can come nigh our dwelling except meted out in weight and measure, time, duration and result, by the unerring wisdom and power of God himself. As it is written, “Is there evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” Job said, “Shall we receive good from the Lord, and not evil?” That is, shall we receive prosperity, and not adversity, pleasure and not pain, joy and not sorrow? Wars, famine, and pestilence are evils, which come and go at God’s command. And persecution and oppression are under his control. Men are used by him as his sword and his hand; devils and wicked men are restrained or suffered to vent their malice, as God ordains. And under this conviction we are instructed to pray God to, “Lead us not into temptation, but to deliver us from evil,” and to shield us in the day of evil. As in our text light is contrasted with darkness, so is evil contrasted with peace. “I make peace and create evil.” By withholding peace and bringing evil upon them, that is. The Israelites received evil at the hand of the Lord for their rebellion and idolatry when he sent fiery serpents into their camps, and when he caused their enemies to triumph over them. And so in his dealings with his children, sometimes he sends on them fiery trials, deep afflictions, sore temptations which disturb their peace, and bring labor, sorrow and grief upon them for the trial of their faith, and as chastisement for their faults.

After all that...I think it's a matter of perspective. From Joseph's perspective his brothers selling him into slavery was evil, for God having purposed it from eternity, it was not evil but for good.

“Nothing befalls you, good or evil, but there is a providence of the infinite eternal first Being in that thing; and therein is God’s infiniteness, that it reaches to the least things, to the least worm that is under your feet.”

Excerpt From: Burroughs, Jeremiah. “The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment.”

Luther tells us God is the ultimate cause of evil:​
Martin Luther on Free-will

It would certainly be a hard question, I allow—indeed, an insoluble one—if you sought to establish both the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together; for what is harder, yea, more impossible, than maintaining that contraries and contradictories do not clash?

The apostle, therefore, is bridling the ungodly who take offense at his plain speaking, telling them they should realize that the Divine will is fulfilled by what to us is necessity, and that it is definitely established that no freedom or “free-will” is left them, but all things depend on the will of God alone (215).

Two things should be observed from the above quotations. First, to hold contradictories as both true is not the position of the Reformation, but the position of a muddle-headed thinker (or non-thinker). Second, Luther calls the free-willists “ungodly.”

So the foreknowledge and omnipotence of God are diametrically opposed to our “free-will.” Either God makes mistakes in his foreknowledge, and errors in his action (which is impossible), or else we act, and are caused to act, according to his foreknowledge and action. And by the omnipotence of God I mean, not the power by which he omits to do many things that he could do, but the active power by which he mightily works all in all. It is in this sense that Scripture calls him omnipotent. This omnipotence and foreknowledge of God, I repeat, utterly destroy the doctrine of free will (217).

The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart was not done by the passive permission of God. Nor did God merely foresee it as an observer passively observes the future. God caused it to come to pass by his “active power.” This view certainly establishes God as the ultimate cause of evil. But does this view make man a mere puppet on a string? Luther answered: “It is true that Judas acted willingly, and not under compulsion, but his willing was the work of God, brought into being by his omnipotence, like everything else” (213).

Man acts willingly. A puppet not only does not have free will; it does not have any will at all. Man has a will, but his will is in the hands of God, and he directs it wherever he likes (Proverbs 21:1). Therefore, God never causes man to act against his own will, for it is the very will that he controls. Judas acted willingly, not by compulsion.

:holy:

 
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abacabb3

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To quote myself: Reformed Commentary on Job: Chapter 1 | Reformed Christian Theology

In fact, in the Book of Job Satan accuses God of putting a “hedge” (Job 1:10) around Job, in effect protecting Job from demonic assaults. The Hebrew word of hedge is “sook” which means to “entwine” or “shut,” as in setting up a fence. Translators note its defensive nature. The term is used in only two other parts of the Bible: Job 10:11 and Hosea 2:6. The verbal form “hedged” (“sawkak” in the Hebrew) is used many more times, including in Job 3:23.

God, to test Job’s resolve, purposely removes the hedge (Job 1:11, 12). God says specifically to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.”

This should give us a window into what God’s “withdrawal of grace,” that R.C. Sproul speculates of, is all about. The removing of the hedge is the removing of grace. The protective hedge, therefore, is the grace God gives to protect people from demonic assault.

Using this hedge, God can literally restrain Satan and place certain measures of power in his hand. This obviously is not passive at all, and while it is not active in the sense that God literally forces people to do evil, the obvious answer is that God permits Satan to tempt a man to do evil, and being that God has perfect foreknowledge, the end result of the man’s decision in response to his temptation is in accordance with God’s will.

Let me add, I do not think it is coincidence that God removes the hedge and says "behold, he is in your hand, but don't touch him" and it is not a matter that Satan will not, he cannot. The same is true when Satan ups the ante and God says everything is in Satan's hand other than killing Job. The "hedge" literally was the grace of God carrying Job all along.

I suppose, one can try to read into Job the predestinarian view and that God carefully orchestrates every minute detail and free will is completely annihilated. This is not necessarily unbiblical, but it has never been the historical teaching of the Church of God even among proponents of predestination.
 
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JM

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“If God is the Creator of the entire universe, then it must follow that He is the Lord of the whole universe. No part of the world is outside of His lordship. That means that no part of my life must be outside of His lordship.” Sproul
 
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JM

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“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled." Sproul Chosen By God: Know God's Perfect Plan for His Glory and His Children
 
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JM

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I did not quote Sproul to prove the biblical case, there is ample evidence for what I’ve already stated, but quoted him to show it is pretty standard among Reformed folks. As for Pharaoh hardening his own heart…yes. Off the top of my head, if I recall…Pharaoh hardened his heart three times against God. Again off the top, the Bible records that God also hardened Pharaoh’s heart…16 times.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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abacabb3

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My point is that Sproul takes a more moderate position than you do. Much more moderate than myself. I find myself extremely close to you, and I know of the Scriptures where God exploits evil spirits and what not to bring about calamity on people.

What I cannot find in the Scripture is that God upholds the wickedness in the heart of a man, or demon, in the same sense that God upholds our lives with breath, or makes sure gravity works every second, and atoms stay together instead of breaking apart into a million directions. God controls every molecule of water that evaporates and forms a cloud. But God does not conduct the evil willing of a man or demon. He simply "removes" the hedge and allows men and demons to act according to their natures. Only grace breaks the chain.

In brotherly love,
Craig
 
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