Barbarous procedure?

[enslow]

I saw this thread in the women's forum regarding circumcision. I wanted to include a response, but being a guy I couldn't reply there.

I think any guy would opt out of going through circumcision as a adult, considering the pain involved. However, I'm not aware of any guys are are emotionally damaged because of circumcision. You may wish to consider how your son would feel if he decides that he would have preferred to be circumcized and is considering that as a adult. At least as an infant he won't remember it.

Enslow

 

[WolfGate]

At least as an infant he won't remember it.

Enslow

True, but he still felt it. Have you seen one performed? The pain is obvious.

IMHO, the medical reasons for and against balance out. It's a procedure that cannot be reversed, so if you do it, you remove his choice later. There's no biblical reason to do so. And it is painful to the child.

For those reasons we opted against on our son.

 

[Andry]

True, but he still felt it. Have you seen one performed? The pain is obvious.

IMHO, the medical reasons for and against balance out. It's a procedure that cannot be reversed, so if you do it, you remove his choice later. There's no biblical reason to do so. And it is painful to the child.

For those reasons we opted against on our son.

Correct!! There's no Biblical reason!!!

At the cross, something things from the old to the new covenant changed from physical to spiritual. One being from circumcision of the flesh, to circumcision of the heart.

We too opted against on our son.

 

[Hatsumi]

I saw this thread in the women's forum regarding circumcision. I wanted to include a response, but being a guy I couldn't reply there.

I think any guy would opt out of going through circumcision as a adult, considering the pain involved. However, I'm not aware of any guys are are emotionally damaged because of circumcision. You may wish to consider how your son would feel if he decides that he would have preferred to be circumcized and is considering that as a adult. At least as an infant he won't remember it.

Enslow

You say you are unaware of any guys who are emotionally damaged because of circumcision..... have you looked for them? There are support groups online for men who feel damaged from the procedure. Very few men actually need to be circumcised as adults. Those who want to be circumcised at least have a choice.... just like choosing whether to pierce ears or get a tattoo or Botox. A circumcised infant has the choice taken away from him.

Actually, I think circumcision as an adult, although more memorable, would be less painful. In an adult male, the foreskin is separated from the glans. In a newborn, it is adhered to the glans, and has to be forcibly torn away before it can be cut or crushed off. So the head of the baby's penis is an open wound, completely raw, and coming in contact with urine and fecal matter. Sounds pretty painful. Plus, an adult would be anesthetized prior to the procedure and given pain meds afterwards; something which infants are usually not.

Both of my sons were left the way God made them.

 

[Kokopelli]

My wife and disagree with the idea of circumcision. Me personally, I prefer not to have any future sons circumcized. My wife on the other hand, will want it. Her reasoning, is that it's cleaner and the baby won't remember the procedure. My response is usually, "Well we break an infant's arm and it'll hurt and they will feel it. But they are not going to remember it."

I remember reading a report in a Men's Health magazine several years ago that described the process. Very painful indeed for a young infant to go through. However this thread brings up a funny incident that the wife and I witnessed back in March. We had to take our daughter in for an MRI back in the middle of March. Well, there was this teenage guy there around 14 with his mother. I overheard the nurse say, "Ok, you're here for the circumcision.." I do not know what was worse: the idea of having to go through that at 14, or the fact mom stayed in the room.

Me personally, I would have responded with some very choice and harsh phrases had some one proposed that to me. However, I did not have a choice as an infant.

 

[desi]

Yeah, I know a guy who's pee stream was crooked and he didn't bother to tell mom til he was a teen, then he got recut. Painful from what I hear but the guy seems none the worse for wear.

 

[MikeK]

There are support groups online for men who feel damaged from the procedure.

I don't want to laugh at anyone's plight, but what a worry free simple life one must lead if their missing foreskin causes them such hardship. Lucky guys.

 

[Hatsumi]

I don't want to laugh at anyone's plight, but what a worry free simple life one must lead if their missing foreskin causes them such hardship. Lucky guys.

Well, I wouldn't call ALL of them lucky. Circumcisions can be seriously botched just like any other surgical procedure. Type "botched circumcisions" into Google and you get nearly 1,000 hits.

But even an unbotched circumcision comes with side effects. Some of the more common ones are skin bridges, skin tags, scarring, and excessive skin removal. After all, the doctor performing a circ on a newborn has no idea how big the organ will be in adulthood. Removing too much skin can cause the adult male to have painfully tight erections, with the scrotal skin being drawn up the penile shaft.

Seems like a big risk to take for a largely cosmetic procedure.

 

[Hatsumi]

Yeah, I know a guy who's pee stream was crooked and he didn't bother to tell mom til he was a teen, then he got recut. Painful from what I hear but the guy seems none the worse for wear.

Well, if they'd left him intact he would have escaped two surgeries. It's not all that uncommon to need a second procedure to "correct" the first one.

I just don't understand why so many Christians feel that God's Creation needs fixing.

 

[Grunt]

At least as an infant he won't remember it.

"The often repeated statement that babies can't feel pain is not true. It is documented in the medical literature that babies are as sensitive to pain as anyone else, and perhaps more so.

Most circumcisions are performed without anaesthetic, because there are risks involved with using anaesthetics on babies. Sometimes local injections are used, but this does not eliminate pain. Most babies will show signs of pain during the procedure and in the week or ten days following circumcision. Recent studies have shown that the pain is remembered long beyond the time of the procedure itself."
http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/FAQ/

Other things worth reading: http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/

 

[desi]

Well, if they'd left him intact he would have escaped two surgeries. It's not all that uncommon to need a second procedure to "correct" the first one.

I just don't understand why so many Christians feel that God's Creation needs fixing.

Isn't it easier to keep clean according to the medical community?

 

[BeanMak]

No, that is untrue Desi, there is no medical reason to do a circumcision

 

[Kokopelli]

This may be going off-topic here, but what exactly is the purpose of circumcision? I know the Jewish and Islamic faiths practice it, but AFAIK, it is only American Christians that do it.

 

[Andry]

Just remember, once you lose it, you can't get it back.

Think "Joey" on "Friends".

 

[Andry]

My wife and disagree with the idea of circumcision. Me personally, I prefer not to have any future sons circumcized. My wife on the other hand, will want it. Her reasoning, is that it's cleaner and the baby won't remember the procedure. My response is usually, "Well we break an infant's arm and it'll hurt and they will feel it. But they are not going to remember it."

I remember reading a report in a Men's Health magazine several years ago that described the process. Very painful indeed for a young infant to go through. However this thread brings up a funny incident that the wife and I witnessed back in March. We had to take our daughter in for an MRI back in the middle of March. Well, there was this teenage guy there around 14 with his mother. I overheard the nurse say, "Ok, you're here for the circumcision.." I do not know what was worse: the idea of having to go through that at 14, or the fact mom stayed in the room.

Me personally, I would have responded with some very choice and harsh phrases had some one proposed that to me. However, I did not have a choice as an infant.

Tell your wife it's not 'cleaner'. Like any body part, it can get dirty. So clean it. I'm teaching my 4yo to clean his. Just like his ears, his hands, his nose, and his teeth need cleaning.

I suspect, culturally, your wife may feel that a circumcised penis looks normal, as oppose to a non-cicumcised one. But for the Christian, there are no Biblical grounds for it today. Period.

I was circumcised at 14, at the behest of my minister dad. I can tragically confirm that it hurt like ****. I couldn't pee without excruciating pain for two weeks. Sure there was local anesthetic for the procedure, but guess where they jabbed the needle in order to do that?

Was I scarred emotionally? Nah, none the worse for wear. Would I want, as a Christian parent, my son to go through with a Biblically unwarranted commandment? Not on your life.

 

[Hatsumi]

Isn't it easier to keep clean according to the medical community?

It takes all of 30 seconds to retract a foreskin and clean under it. For the first several years of a boy's life, even THAT isn't necessary because the foreskin is adhered and doesn't retract. Are boys and men so lazy that they can't be trusted to wash properly? I think not.

The reason Christian Americans are so bent on circumcision (as someone else said), is because the phenomenon is a by-product of Puritanical heritage. Masturbation was taboo, and it's common knowledge (or at least it used to be) that the organs of intact males are much more sensitive. The way to keep boys from masturbating was obvious; remove the highly sensitive covering and allow the organ to dry out. It didn't work, of course. Boys still masturbated. http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/history.htm

Then times changed, and doctors made money off the procedure. And so they keep trying to prove that it's medically necessary, even though the position of the American Academy of Pediatrics has been that it's NOT necessary for around 30 years now. Additionally, many insurance companies no longer pay for the surgery.

 

[desi]

Thanks for the replies Hatsumi and BeanMak, good to know why we do what we do.

 

[Kokopelli]

Thank you guys for providing the insight and answering my question. I will definitely tell my wife about that if our second child is a boy. Though that is still another year or two off before we decide to have another. As crazy as it sounds, I have a feeling that I am going to be blessed with three beautiful daughters and everyone of them will have a hand at turning daddy's hair gray. LOL

 

[MikeK]

If I were born with flaps of skin covering my armpits that posed no health risk but were unsightly and provided a sancuary for bacteria to grow and for oder to form, I would want them removed, preferably as an infant. Ditto the foreskin, I certainly don't miss mine.

 

[desi]

If I were born with flaps of skin covering my armpits that posed no health risk but were unsightly and provided a sancuary for bacteria to grow and for oder to form, I would want them removed, preferably as an infant. Ditto the foreskin, I certainly don't miss mine.

After reading the link I can't help but wonder if I'm missing out for not having one.