Bar owner on stage every sunday?

I need to know is this right? Every sunday there is a bar owner on the praise and worship team, is this right or do you think there is compromise going on for the mans money? It kinda bothers me because now I dont know what to think I stopped drinking when I got saved and by seeing this man up there it's like saying it's ok. Is this any differnt than selling crack or herion ?would they let a crack dealer on the praise and worship team? anybody have any input on the subject?

Is this a bar or a resturant that serves alcohol?

It's called a wing bar

So it's a place that sells wings and beer?

walkingfeet said:

I need to know is this right? Every sunday there is a bar owner on the praise and worship team, is this right or do you think there is compromise going on for the mans money? It kinda bothers me because now I dont know what to think I stopped drinking when I got saved and by seeing this man up there it's like saying it's ok. Is this any differnt than selling crack or herion ?would they let a crack dealer on the praise and worship team? anybody have any input on the subject?

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I think it is fine. While it would be hard for me to watch people get drunk (which isnt the sole purpose of a bar) I dont think he is doing anything wrong. This is his trade why should he change it?

Now, if it was a nudie bar or he promotes getting drunk, thats a different story.

Yes wings and alcohol

walkingfeet said:

Yes wings and alcohol

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That sounds good.

Does he promote drunkary and have you broached this subject with him and his thoughts as a Christian man?

There's nothing wrong with having wings and a beer once in a while, is there? Don't do it to excess, but most of the wing places I've been to also serve beer. It doesn't make them evil.

walkingfeet, have you approached this man as in Matthew 18?
I have a different point of view on this. I think that, as a leader in the church, he is being a stumbling block for other Christians. Especially recovering Christians. Yes, it's his trade, but is that the only trade on the planet? Cannot our God provide for His children? So, then, is what this man singing a lie?
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1 John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Well, don't look now...but last week, there was a gossiper on the stage too! LOL! And a gluttoner...and a liar too!

If he owned a movie theater that sometimes showed R rated movies, would that be a sin? Or what if he was the CEO of a corporation that gave gay lovers insurance rights?
What if he owned a wedding reception hall where they served wine? Oops! That sounded familiar didn't it!

If you were convicted of drinking alcohol and stopped...then praise God and blessings to you! But IMO, we shouldn't judge others for being a part of something that isn't explicitly listed as sin. I know being drunk is a sin, but I just can't make scripture say drinking anything with alcohol is a sin. What if he owned a grocery store that sold beer and wine? Think of ALL the businesses he could own that could serve beer....air lines, theaters, golf course, grocery store, gas station, the list goes on and on. If you feel you must judge him....judge him by his fruit.

mesue said:

walkingfeet, have you approached this man as in Matthew 18?
I have a different point of view on this. I think that, as a leader in the church, he is being a stumbling block for other Christians. Especially recovering Christians. Yes, it's his trade, but is that the only trade on the planet? Cannot our God provide for His children? So, then, is what this man singing a lie?
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1 John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

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While your right there are other professions and God will provide I still dont think he has to give it up. What he does for employment doesnt have to be shoved onto others. No one has to goto his resturant/bar. The very verse indicates that there is nothing wrong with alcohol. It also indicates that there are weaker brethren who need to recognize that there is nothing wrong with those things, but who are not able to do so as yet. The ones who are offended by the eating of "flesh" or "wine" must make an effort to grow and not remain in that weaker state. You just dont do those things in their presence.

There is nothing wrong with being weaker. And there is nothing wrong with not wanting to drink. There is definitly nothing wrong with not wanting such things be imposed upon oneself. However, the restraunteers throughout christendom, who do not serve alcohol but "flesh," would you really ask that they close shop for this reason? Or would you be more inclined to say just dont impose it on anyone who doesnt want it. Would you not allow them to be a music minister and make joyus noise unto the Lord?

Or at a church barbecue would you tell the Pastor he is sinning for cooking steak, hotdogs, and the like? Does your church refrain from those who may be sensitive to that?

I think its a fine line.

Hisgirl said:

If you were convicted of drinking alcohol and stopped...then praise God and blessings to you! But IMO, we shouldn't judge others for being a part of something that isn't explicitly listed as sin. I know being drunk is a sin, but I just can't make scripture say drinking anything with alcohol is a sin. What if he owned a grocery store that sold beer and wine? Think of ALL the businesses he could own that could serve beer....air lines, theaters, golf course, grocery store, gas station, the list goes on and on. If you feel you must judge him....judge him by his fruit.

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First, I am not convicted of anything concerning drugs or alcohol, I do work with those recovering. I was just referring to scripture.
We are explicitly told to not give our brethren an occasion to stumble. As I have mentioned in my previous post. I don't have to think of all the businesses he could own, I just merely have to reflect upon the one that he does own.
God must want us to stay away from it, or He wouldn't have put it in His word.
And of which fruit should I judge? The fruit stumbling out of the bar? The fruit getting a DWI, or murder conviction from the fatal accident that the fruit caused? Or, worse yet, the soul that didn't come to repentence because this fruit said "Why should I become a Christian? You're no different than all the rest?"
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Proverb:23:20: Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
Proverb:23:21: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.
Proverb:23:29: Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Proverb:23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Proverbs 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Proverbs 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

mesue said:

First, I am not convicted of anything concerning drugs or alcohol, I do work with those recovering. I was just referring to scripture.
We are explicitly told to not give our brethren an occasion to stumble. As I have mentioned in my previous post. I don't have to think of all the businesses he could own, I just merely have to reflect upon the one that he does own.

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Your ignoring perfectly good implications that stem from your logic of the above verse though. Those situations all come into play.

God must want us to stay away from it, or He wouldn't have put it in His word.

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Or convened the first communion with it? Made a fine wine for those to partake of at a party? Surely Jesus, God, does not tempt with sin. Surely you dont suggest there were not recovering drunkards in Jesus' time?

And of which fruit should I judge? The fruit stumbling out of the bar? The fruit getting a DWI, or murder conviction from the fatal accident that the fruit caused? Or, worse yet, the soul that didn't come to repentence because this fruit said "Why should I become a Christian? You're no different than all the rest?"

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Others sin is not on his head. He does not bear their iniquity. It was others choices to profane something thats not meant to be abused. And if indeed you believe in election, is God not sovriegn over this as nothing hinders his will?

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Proverb:23:20: Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
Proverb:23:21: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.
Proverb:23:29: Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Proverb:23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Proverbs 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Proverbs 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

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It's a solid proverb but a warning against drunkards not casual drinkers. Alcohol is not forbidden in scripture my dear only getting trashed. Again, if this guy promotes getting drunk, and is a drunkard himself by all means bring him before the church. However if all he does is run a valid buisness then you have yet to show he's done any wrong. And bringing only anti-drunk scriptures into play and calling it all bad is a huge oversight of the use of wine and other drink in scripture that is not partaken of in sin (aside from Jesus making it, they had to get it from somewhere, bar, brewery perhaps?). You never see light drinking condemned in scripture it is always full blown drunkary thats condemned.

to each his own though. I personally commend those who do not drink. It's perfectly reasonable and understandable. I encourage it even though I myself will not partake of it. I just hope those who dont, realize that there is nothing sinful about having a beer or 2 or even selling it. [Legally of course]

I used to be an alcoholic and when I was saved That was the end of it. Now people are asking me to go here for diffrent get togethers to support this business ,I'm sorry but it just goes against me, I'm not judging , I just need some advice for me. I'm not trying to get him off stage,and I'm not talking to people in the church about this, thats why I'm here to get your oppions on the matter without stirring up trouble in the church. I dont want to hurt anybody in anyway.

walkingfeet said:

I used to be an alcoholic and when I was saved That was the end of it. Now people are asking me to go here for diffrent get togethers to support this business ,I'm sorry but it just goes against me, I'm not judging , I just need some advice for me. I'm not trying to get him off stage,and I'm not talking to people in the church about this, thats why I'm here to get your oppions on the matter without stirring up trouble in the church. I dont want to hurt anybody in anyway.

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Hey, Praise God for your deliverance! I pray the same for my father as he is currently a lost alcoholic. My advice to you is since it was a point of serious addiction in your life is to never drink again and avoid it. You do not have to go back to that lifestyle which is so hard.

This guy on stage, please recognize that he is more than likely a man of God and does not desire you to stumble. He is there to minister to you in music and bless God through joyus noise. Praise God with him brother as you have much to praise him for!

I would also talk to him, tell him your story, and ask him to pray for you. He is your brother as well and would probably love to minister to you. You dont have to goto his joint and you definitly dont have to have another drink. No one should force you to go either and dont be afraid to tell those who insist why you dont want to go [its a powerful testimony]. Plus they probably dont understand. God delievered you from it and they should understand and leave it be.

Im thanking God for you now and praying for you!

The Lord's Envoy said:

Your ignoring perfectly good implications that stem from your logic of the above verse though. Those situations all come into play.



Or convened the first communion with it? Made a fine wine for those to partake of at a party? Surely Jesus, God, does not tempt with sin. Surely you dont suggest there were not recovering drunkards in Jesus' time?



Others sin is not on his head. He does not bear their iniquity. It was others choices to profane something thats not meant to be abused. And if indeed you believe in election, is God not sovriegn over this as nothing hinders his will?



It's a solid proverb but a warning against drunkards not casual drinkers. Alcohol is not forbidden in scripture my dear only getting trashed. Again, if this guy promotes getting drunk, and is a drunkard himself by all means bring him before the church. However if all he does is run a valid buisness then you have yet to show he's done any wrong. And bringing only anti-drunk scriptures into play and calling it all bad is a huge oversight of the use of wine and other drink in scripture that is not partaken of in sin (aside from Jesus making it, they had to get it from somewhere, bar, brewery perhaps?). You never see light drinking condemned in scripture it is always full blown drunkary thats condemned.

to each his own though. I personally commend those who do not drink. It's perfectly reasonable and understandable. I encourage it even though I myself will not partake of it. I just hope those who dont, realize that there is nothing sinful about having a beer or 2 or even selling it. [Legally of course]

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There's quite the difference between the upper room and the wing bar, You're comparing apples and oranges, Doc.
There's quite the difference between "causal" drink and alcoholism, except where the alcoholic is concerned then it's all the same.
The NT the word that was used for wine could have been either grape juice or fermented. It isn't clear that the wine Jesus changed from water is juice or fermented. In proverbs the word clearly is the fermented kind.
It is all bad if you know that what you are doing is bad and continue.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
It is our responsibility if we cause our brother to fall, even inadvertently.

walkingfeet, it's a touchy subject. I can understand and appreciate your not wanting to stir up strife. Have you gone to the owner of this bar?
Open the Bible with him, show him some scripture and let him make his own decision. It's between him and God. I was taught to have a ready answer. And to have a Book, Chapter and Verse as to why you say what you say.
Sometimes things seem really bad in our minds until we go to that person and speak to them.
TLE, I was just pointing out scripture as to why I feel the way I do. I have a son older that you, I have seen some things in my day. I have been told that I get "snippy" in my writtings, I'm sorry if I appear snippy. It's not my intent.

"6And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. 9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. 11This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him."

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but here we see Jesus not only condoning the consumption of alcohol but supplying it to people. Before anyone casts stones at this man for running a bar one should keep this in mind.

Before the advent of clean drinking water people drank wine, some may have had problems with abusing it (just as we do today) but doing any natural thing to excess is wrong. Eating hamburgers is an amoral action, but if I eat 20 in one sitting that would be the sin of glottony.

Also, to those who say he should stop his profession and find a new one I must say that you do not know this man, nor his situation in life. Its very easy for you to say he should stop it but he has a family to support and there might be no other way for his to make a living.

mesue said:

There's quite the difference between the upper room and the wing bar, You're comparing apples and oranges, Doc.

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Perhaps, but what of the wedding?

There's quite the difference between "causal" drink and alcoholism, except where the alcoholic is concerned then it's all the same.

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I would agree. Casual Drinking in moderation will not cause someone to be a drunkard. Though to an alcoholic, or rather an ex-alcoholic he would probably view it as all evil.

The NT the word that was used for wine could have been either grape juice or fermented. It isn't clear that the wine Jesus changed from water is juice or fermented. In proverbs the word clearly is the fermented kind.

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Sure I will concede that the word is generic. One of the things we must take into consideration is the context. How is the word used by the biblical writer in other places? Often times the word is used in corralation to being drunk thus it is logical to say that a fermented juice is being described. Besides the proverb you mentioned still is reffering to getting drunk. There is a difference.

It is all bad if you know that what you are doing is bad and continue.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

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I totally agree Mesue. This is why you should not put anything in their way. Do not drink in front of them, do not invite them somewhere where they will be tempted. I struggle with lust, shall I insist that all women stay away from me? In the same way, shall we keep this barkeep from serving as a minister of music? No of course not. No one has to impose upon their brother alcohol.

TLE, I was just pointing out scripture as to why I feel the way I do. I have a son older that you, I have seen some things in my day. I have been told that I get "snippy" in my writtings, I'm sorry if I appear snippy. It's not my intent.

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No worries. The only part of your view that bothers is that you view alcohol as intrinsicly sinful. Scripturally you have admonition to avoid getting drunk never a charge to be abstinant of any. Thats the truth of the matter. the rest of your view I agree with and would not judge those who choose to partake or forsake. I have found this discussion fruitful and educational

This post was completely ignored, and I was wondering if you could address it for me:

walkingfeet, have you approached this man as in Matthew 18?
I have a different point of view on this. I think that, as a leader in the church, he is being a stumbling block for other Christians. Especially recovering Christians. Yes, it's his trade, but is that the only trade on the planet? Cannot our God provide for His children? So, then, is what this man singing a lie?
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1 John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Click to expand...

While your right there are other professions and God will provide I still dont think he has to give it up. What he does for employment doesnt have to be shoved onto others. No one has to goto his resturant/bar. The very verse indicates that there is nothing wrong with alcohol. It also indicates that there are weaker brethren who need to recognize that there is nothing wrong with those things, but who are not able to do so as yet. The ones who are offended by the eating of "flesh" or "wine" must make an effort to grow and not remain in that weaker state. You just dont do those things in their presence.

There is nothing wrong with being weaker. And there is nothing wrong with not wanting to drink. There is definitly nothing wrong with not wanting such things be imposed upon oneself. However, the restraunteers throughout christendom, who do not serve alcohol but "flesh," would you really ask that they close shop for this reason? Or would you be more inclined to say just dont impose it on anyone who doesnt want it. Would you not allow them to be a music minister and make joyus noise unto the Lord?

Or at a church barbecue would you tell the Pastor he is sinning for cooking steak, hotdogs, and the like? Does your church refrain from those who may be sensitive to that?

I think its a fine line.

OK so what did Jesus say?

Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!


Yes thats right for many alcohol is a sin big time and more there are that alcohol leads to an occasion of sin than it does not. Regardless this fellow brings that temptation to those who use it sinfully.

Also a person who DARES to stand upon G-ds altar whether as a preacher or a worship leader best be as clean as they can be. For they shall be judged more harshly

IMO I would never permit him on the worship team

Pastor George

agreed...

Everyone knows what alcohol can do....and then to say "well, Jesus was speaking about drunkards, not the casual drinker"...Well, what do you expect the bar owner to do? Have everyone fill out a questionaire to know who he can sell to or take a breathalizer test before they leave?....And just b/c it is not a full fledge bar does not mean that people cannot get drunk in there.

Surely there is more sense to not compare Jesus turning water into wine AT A WEDDING vs. a man selling alcohol for a profit....Do we truly not understand the whole point behind that scripture? God gave a MIRACLE!

No, drinking in itself in not inheritantly evil; however, as a Christian, knowing all the effects of drinking alcohol, I do not think in any way it should be condoned in a public manner for profit. WOnder how much money would be lost if he sold wings and coke?

I feel it is necessary to look outside of the box at the WHOLE picture...and not just about a man making a living.

Is being a secretary okay?
What about being a secretary at an abortion clinic?

And anyone that owns a grocery store, a convenience store, a bowling alley, whatever, has the OPTION to sell alcohol. In fact right now in our dry town, the local owner of a convenience store is trying to begin selling alcohol. He got enough petitions to bring it to a vote....but the majority of the church is against it b/c of the evil that comes along with alcohol and the potential buyers.

No one is questioning this man and his salvation or relationship with God. The OP simply asked for advice.

Let me leave you with this...if this were not a stumbling block, then why do we have a young individual questioning this matter?