Baptists and the Rapture Poll

Hank77 said:

Please, what mystery verse/s are you referring to. Thanks

I agree with you but I don't think that is the mystery verse/s that @twin1954 is referring to.

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Rom. 11:25 particularly but all the verses where Paul uses the word.

ItIsFinished! said:

You are entitled to your opinion, but I completely disagree. Paul was not talking about the Second Coming of Christ (where He Christ actually steps on earth) unlike the rapture where the dead in Christ since Pentacost and present believers meet the Lord in the air.
Rapture and the Second Coming are two distinctive events.
One before the 7 year tribulation and the other after the 7 year tribulation .
The mystery that Paul speaks of is clearly the rapture NOT the Second Coming.

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Please show me anywhere that the coming of Christ Jesus the Lord is in two parts?

ItIsFinished! said:

You are entitled to your opinion, but I completely disagree. Paul was not talking about the Second Coming of Christ (where He Christ actually steps on earth) unlike the rapture where the dead in Christ since Pentacost and present believers meet the Lord in the air.
Rapture and the Second Coming are two distinctive events.
One before the 7 year tribulation and the other after the 7 year tribulation .
The mystery that Paul speaks of is clearly the rapture NOT the Second Coming.

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Also you seem to ignore verse 16 of 1Thess.4 in order to buttress your imagination concerning a rapture. It clearly shows that this coming of Christ is with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God. No secret about it. It is obvious to any who don’t have to jump through hoops to prove their eschatology.

JM said:

Does your congregation hold to a statement of faith that includes the PreTrib Rapture?

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Depends on who you ask. Not really a foundational issue. And not a qualifying factor for being a member of the Church.

twin1954 said:

Also you seem to ignore verse 16 of 1Thess.4 in order to buttress your imagination concerning a rapture. It clearly shows that this coming of Christ is with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God. No secret about it. It is obvious to any who don’t have to jump through hoops to prove their eschatology.

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No one is jumping through hoops to prove "their" eschatology.
And actually I didn't ignore 1st Thessalonians 4:16 at all. Also that verse is not about the Second Coming whatsoever. It is actually about the rapture.

twin1954 said:

Please show me anywhere that the coming of Christ Jesus the Lord is in two parts?

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I never stated the Second Coming of Christ is in two parts at all.
The rapture and Second Coming are two seperate events , not "parts".
The church WILL NOT be here during the 7 year tribulation .
The dead in christ since Pentacost and present (alive) believers at the time of the rapture meet the Lord in the air. At the Second Coming Jesus actually sets foot on the earth at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
Two seperate awesome events .

Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, secret, all will see, this has been an issue for many, many years.

I am not aware of any Baptist groups per se, that state a belief one way or another in their C.o.F.

The only ones I do know of that do, are "old school" Fundamentalists.

In 1878, when Fundamentalism came into its own, they did say:

14. The premillennial Second Coming of Christ.

Source

Why is this such a dividing subject? I believe in a Pre-trib rapture of the saints just because I don't believe God would make the righteous suffer right along with the unrighteous.

Do you believe that everything John wrote from Rev. 6 through Rev. 20 the redeemed, saved, those "in Christ" will have to endure that with the unsaved?

If in the future, I am proven wrong, so be it.

Your only other alternative is to believe Jesus will return, pause for a little bit to gather the elect, then in an instant, His whole countenance will change, and He will begin to make war with Satan and his army.

Personally, I believe the church will be taken out before Revelation 6 starts. But that is just my own belief.

God Bless

Till all are one.

ItIsFinished! said:

Thanks for your opinion, but I personally strongly disagree.

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Listen friend, of all the people I know of here on the forums, there is no one single person whose advice I would seek out faster. While my friend (twin1954) and I disagree on "Dispensationalism" there is not one person whose opinion I hold in higher esteem.

I do believe this is the only "doctrinal" issue where we have disagreed on.

And here again, I must point this out.

We are, after all, talking about eschatology. Nobody knows, nobody has a perfect eschatology. Even Jesus said of the hour He knew not, only the Father.

In eschatology, with few exceptions, its all "fair game".

God Bless

Till all are one.

twin1954 said:

Rom. 11:25 particularly but all the verses where Paul uses the word.

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1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Romans 11:25 is a different mystery.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

DeaconDean said:

Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, secret, all will see, this has been an issue for many, many years.

I am not aware of any Baptist groups per se, that state a belief one way or another in their C.o.F.

The only ones I do know of that do, are "old school" Fundamentalists.

In 1878, when Fundamentalism came into its own, they did say:

14. The premillennial Second Coming of Christ.

Source

Why is this such a dividing subject? I believe in a Pre-trib rapture of the saints just because I don't believe God would make the righteous suffer right along with the unrighteous.

Do you believe that everything John wrote from Rev. 6 through Rev. 20 the redeemed, saved, those "in Christ" will have to endure that with the unsaved?

If in the future, I am proven wrong, so be it.

Your only other alternative is to believe Jesus will return, pause for a little bit to gather the elect, then in an instant, His whole countenance will change, and He will begin to make war with Satan and his army.

Personally, I believe the church will be taken out before Revelation 6 starts. But that is just my own belief.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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You’re wrong. wink

Hank77 said:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Romans 11:25 is a different mystery.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

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Yes I remember that one but it still isn’t talking about a rapture. Again it is a presupposition that leads to such an interpretation. Compare 1Cor. 15:52 with 1Thess. 4:16, 17 and you will clearly see the complete second coming of Christ. There is no place in the New Testament that even intimates that Christ is coming part way and then fully.

DeaconDean said:

Listen friend, of all the people I know of here on the forums, there is no one single person whose advice I would seek out faster. While my friend (twin1954) and I disagree on "Dispensationalism" there is not one person whose opinion I hold in higher esteem.

I do believe this is the only "doctrinal" issue where we have disagreed on.

And here again, I must point this out.

We are, after all, talking about eschatology. Nobody knows, nobody has a perfect eschatology. Even Jesus said of the hour He knew not, only the Father.

In eschatology, with few exceptions, its all "fair game".

God Bless

Till all are one.

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You humble me my friend.

ItIsFinished! said:

No one is jumping through hoops to prove "their" eschatology.
And actually I didn't ignore 1st Thessalonians 4:16 at all. Also that verse is not about the Second Coming whatsoever. It is actually about the rapture.

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Only according to your presumption.

ItIsFinished! said:

I never stated the Second Coming of Christ is in two parts at all.
The rapture and Second Coming are two seperate events , not "parts".
The church WILL NOT be here during the 7 year tribulation .
The dead in christ since Pentacost and present (alive) believers at the time of the rapture meet the Lord in the air. At the Second Coming Jesus actually sets foot on the earth at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
Two seperate awesome events .

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Then show me where in the Scriptures that even two separate events are spoken of apart from the presumption of it.

One more thing you ought to know: I own and have read many, if not most, of the writings of Dispensationalists including Clarence Larken with all his diagrams.

twin1954 said:

Yes I remember that one but it still isn’t talking about a rapture. Again it is a presupposition that leads to such an interpretation. Compare 1Cor. 15:52 with 1Thess. 4:16, 17 and you will clearly see the complete second coming of Christ. There is no place in the New Testament that even intimates that Christ is coming part way and then fully.

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I agree with you.
Dispensationalists think the mystery is the rapture/catching up, rather than some people will not die and the changing of our bodies to be like Christ's, as Paul says, we will be like Him.
KJV
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
YLT
1Co 15:51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

twin1954 said:

Only according to your presumption.

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According to The Word of God, not presumption.

ItIsFinished! said:

According to The Word of God, not presumption.

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Prove it my friend.

twin1954 said:

Yes I remember that one but it still isn’t talking about a rapture. Again it is a presupposition that leads to such an interpretation. Compare 1Cor. 15:52 with 1Thess. 4:16, 17 and you will clearly see the complete second coming of Christ. There is no place in the New Testament that even intimates that Christ is coming part way and then fully.

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This is directed at you brother.

All the Gospels accounts say about Jesus' return will be "great power and glory".

As a whole, both 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 "harmonize" very well.

Where I have not had any success whatsoever "harmonizing" scriptures are the Gospel account with Acts 1:11; 2 Thess. 1:7-8, Rev. 19:11.

Like I said, the only alternative is to believe, according to the Gospel and Paul's account, Jesus will return in the clouds, gather his elect, then His countenance will change to Him in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that known not God, all the while sitting upon a "white horse". And if you accept that position, then you would also have to believe that the church will endure all 7 years of the tribulation.

Now I know that the church at Philadelphia disappeared some years ago. How do we take John's (?) record of what is promised to the church at Philadelphia?

Seriously though, looking at the "eschatology" we know of that is revealed between Revelation 6 and Revelation 18, of the currently 7 billion inhabitants on the face of the earth, only 3.1 billion will survive until Rev. 19:11 starts. (King of Kings, sitting on a white horse)

Let me give you an example:

In the first three seals of Revelation 6 being opened, while the disaster is huge, no one perishes. However, in Rev. 6:7-8 we read:

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Before Jesus returns, here is an "instant" death sentence.

As of 08:35 am, 10/18/18, the worlds population is 7,657, 517,790 people.

If the opening of the fourth seal tells us a quarter will die, that means as of this date, 1,914,379,448 people would die. How many are "Christian" and how many are non-Christians? Don't know, its not my business to know. What I do know is this "prophesy" makes no distinction as to whether those who die are saved or unsaved.

I just don't accept, that God would punish the good with the wicked. And add to that what Paul says in 1 Thess. 1:10. Simply put, the Book of Revelation is God's wrath being poured out on an unrepentant, unsaved world.

If you look also at the word "wrath", it is not mentioned until Rev. 6:16.

From a strictly Greek usage, agro, is always used as a noun. And in at least one place, it is used as an adverbial modifying a noun.

An example would be the word "house". Even though it is a noun, it can be used as a adjective to describe a particular place.

What is important here is to look at scripture. I don't care what your particular view is on the tribulation. But it is important to know that after Rev. 6:15, scriptures there tell us what follows is God's wrath.

It is particularly to the point here:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" -Rev. 6:17 (KJV)

And again, in Rev. 16, we see an even more terrible event revealed. The pouring out of God's wrath in the "Bowl Judgements".

Now I will also freely admit, that the ultimate "wrath of God" comes upon those who have to spend an eternity in the "Lake of Fire".

But, as shown previously, the wrath of God begins with the opening of the "seven seals" of Revelation 6.

With all due respect brother, I just don't see it.

God Bless

Till all are one.