Baptists and Augustine

[aReformedPatriot]

Where does Augustine fit in the Baptist world?

 

[ZiSunka]

I have read a lot of Augustine's recorded words and find that although some of them are useful in understanding some of the concepts of the faith, many more are troublesome. I won't elaborate which ones I'm talking about because catholics hold Augustine near and dear to their hearts and I don't want to offend them by criticizing any of their doctrine that comes directly from Augustine's teachings. I got in trouble for that once, not all that long ago.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

we are allowed to discuss and academically criticize catholic doctrine LL only if we do it in a way thats respectable and we dont call them hellmongers basically. Its in the B/A rules so I dunno why talking about him gets us in trouble.

In anycase what beliefs did he teach that we embrace, anyone know? And who was he?

 

[ZiSunka]

never mind.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Un huh. The last time we tried to do that, when we discussed the woman with the crown of stars, I ended up getting an unofficial warning, even though we used catholic sources to discuss their doctrine and we didn't call them any names at all. I was told that next time, I would get an official warning and maybe even ousted for a while if I discussed the problems with catholic doctrine. We are not allowed to discuss their doctrine at all.

2) Baptist/Anabaptist, as well as all members of the Congregational Forums can post fellowship threads here. Only Baptist/Anabaptist members are allowed to debate threads to discuss various doctrines to do with their own denomination and other denominations (including the Catholic church), as long as they are within our rules.

*shrug* I dunno. I am fascinated by their doctrine and beliefs. I'll continue to discuss it here from my perspective so long as this says I can. I hope thats not viewed as being troublesome.

In anycase what beliefs did he teach that we embrace, anyone know? And who was he?

 

[theseed]

I think that Augustine believed in unconditional election and total depravity of sinners.

 

[2Timothy2]

I have just downloaded "Confessions" and "On Christian Doctrine". I've never read anything by him, so I can't comment yet. I do seem to hear him quoted alot, even by fellow Baptists.

 

[BT]

We can talk about Augustine and we can talk about Catholicism.

We can not bash Catholics (seperate the folks from the teaching so to speak).

We're free to post within the rules in our own forum. We're not allowed to say that "Catholics are all going to hell." 1. Because we couldn't say that truthfully anyways Only God knows. and
2. It's against the forum rules to call one group "not Christian". and
3. Even if you believe that, the statement itself does not exhibit the kind of grace and love that we are commanded to show. If you could show me one instance of Jesus saying, "You're going to hell" then I could change my mind. What I find Him doing is warning people of hell and telling them how to avoid it, what kinds of things end up getting you there, what it is like (real) etc. I never see Him pointing the finger at anyone and saying "Buddy, you are going to hell". Even in speaking of Judas He only said that it would have been better for him if he had never been born.. Anyway so long as we remain Christ-like we have nothing to fear from the "rules"

So as long as we remain within the rules there will be no issue...


So now:

Where does Augustine fit with the Baptists?

He doesn't. Normally. He wrote some good things, and some of his works are respected ('specially in the calvinistic circles) but he was the "Father of Roman Catholicism" and also printed many things that we would disagree with.

Why doesn't he fit with us normally? He has a place, but it's a small if even noticable one because of the majority of his doctrine. Even the calvinistic baptists would get on board with Calvin (duh) rather than Augustine. Though calvin got much from him.

Since we aren't "traditionalists" (and btw the RC's are the only traditionalists in the world, as I'm sure a lot of you know) we take what we like from the fathers and trash the rest.. That's why I say that he doesn't have much to do with the baptists in general...

 

[aReformedPatriot]

I didnt know he was "calvinistic" fascinating.

 

[BT]

Calvin got a lot from Augustine, who got a lot (not theology, philosophy, patterns of thought) from Aristotle. I have a good book on the Calvin-Augustine-Aristotle link, unfortunately I loaned it to a pastor friend of mine.

I once asked a Catholic fellow about his beliefs in the calvinistic concepts, we never got around to really discussing it though. I think if we looked at some of their doctrine we could find some similarities... I'll let you know if I ever get time to really do a cross-section on that. I probably will because I find the Augustine connection fascinating.

 

[theseed]

Even in speaking of Judas He only said that it would have been better for him if he had never been born..

Actually, The Bible calls him the Son of Perdition (damnation/hell). Also, if it would have been better for him not to have been born, then it seems logical to conclude that he did not go to heaven, since that is better than being born.

Why doesn't he fit with us normally? He has a place, but it's a small if even noticable one because of the majority of his doctrine. Even the calvinistic baptists would get on board with Calvin (duh) rather than Augustine. Though calvin got much from him.

Most people know what you mean when you say "Calvinists", unlike Augustiniast.

Since we aren't "traditionalists" (and btw the RC's are the only traditionalists in the world, as I'm sure a lot of you know) we take what we like from the fathers and trash the rest.. That's why I say that he doesn't have much to do with the baptists in general...

That's debatable too. I don't believe they have added traditions to the early church, and taken away some as well.

 

[theseed]

Calvin got a lot from Augustine, who got a lot from Aristotle. I have a good book on the Calvin-Augustine-Aristotle link, unfortunately I loaned it to a pastor friend of mine.

Or is the order Calvin-Augustine-Paul-Arististotle-Plato?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Or is the order Calvin-Augustine-Paul-Arististotle-Plato?

Let's throw Socrates in there too.

 

[theseed]

Let's throw Socrates in there too.

 

[Carrye]

Or is the order Calvin-Augustine-Paul-Arististotle-Plato?

(in time) Calvin - Augustine - Paul - Aristotle - Plato - Socrates.

Calvin got a lot from Augustine, who got a lot (not theology, philosophy, patterns of thought) from Aristotle. I have a good book on the Calvin-Augustine-Aristotle link, unfortunately I loaned it to a pastor friend of mine.

Yeah, you really can't fully understand one without knowing where he was coming from ... his background, what he was responding to, etc. But that's true of every person throughout history.

I once asked a Catholic fellow about his beliefs in the calvinistic concepts, we never got around to really discussing it though. I think if we looked at some of their doctrine we could find some similarities... I'll let you know if I ever get time to really do a cross-section on that. I probably will because I find the Augustine connection fascinating.

If you need a guinea pig, you know where to find one.

 

[BT]

Or is the order Calvin-Augustine-Paul-Arististotle-Plato?

The order is

Aristotle - 384 BC

Augustine - 354 AD

Ol' Johnny Calvin - 1509

Then FYI

Aristotle - 384 BC

Plato - 428 BC

 

[BT]

Actually, The Bible calls him the Son of Perdition (damnation/hell).

Actually the Son of Perdition does not mean damnation/hell.

Greek - apoleia (ruin, loss, destruction, waste, perdition, die) Strongs 648

The term son was given by the Hebrews to those who possessed the character described by the word or name following. Thus, sons of Belial-those who possessed his character; children of wisdom -those who were wise, Mt 11:19. Thus Judas is called a son of perdition because he had the character of a destroyer. He was a traitor and a murderer. And this shows that he who knew the heart regarded his character as that of a wicked man--one whose appropriate name was that of a son of perdition.

The term "son of perdition" therefore relates to his nature/character not his ultimate destination.

Also, if it would have been better for him not to have been born, then it seems logical to conclude that he did not go to heaven, since that is better than being born.

I would agree with that. But the idea was that He [Jesus] didn't pronounce exactly that Judas was going to Hell. Like He didn't say... "He's going to hell that Judas is"

Most people know what you mean when you say "Calvinists", unlike Augustiniast.

Yes very true.

That's debatable too. I don't believe they have added traditions to the early church, and taken away some as well.

who is "they"?

 

[ps139]

I have just downloaded "Confessions" and "On Christian Doctrine". I've never read anything by him, so I can't comment yet. I do seem to hear him quoted alot, even by fellow Baptists.

Confessions is such a great book! Have you started it yet? Even if you do not agree with all of his teachings, his humility is just overwhelming. He was very aware of the ugliness of sin, and well I've never read a more humble confession. His praise for the Lord is magnificent and poetic, and he asks some deep, deep, deep questions, that really just blew my mind!

 

[BT]

I just picked up a set of the "Church Fathers" all of their writings... 38 volumes I think. I started to read Confessions but school/work/family/church got in the way so I had to put it down. What I read was very interesting. I hope to get back to it soon.

Ps139 have you ever read any of St. Chrysostoms homilies? He has an amazing one on the authorship of Hebrews. I read that and was blown away by the sheer depth of thought. I used it as a reference in a paper on... you guessed it "The Authorship of Hebrews". I got an A

 

[ps139]

I just picked up a set of the "Church Fathers" all of their writings... 38 volumes I think. I started to read Confessions but school/work/family/church got in the way so I had to put it down. What I read was very interesting. I hope to get back to it soon.

I hope you get back to it too! Unfortunately I did not finish it either. I got about 80% through it, and then all of a sudden I have no idea where it is. My room is kind of messy though, I'm hoping its just "hiding" .
A friend of mine got a 38 book patristics set, might be the same one! He told me Augustine took up more volumes than anyone else.

Ps139 have you ever read any of St. Chrysostoms homilies? He has an amazing one on the authorship of Hebrews. I read that and was blown away by the sheer depth of thought. I used it as a reference in a paper on... you guessed it "The Authorship of Hebrews". I got an A

No, I haven't. Although I really want to. I've heard lots of rumors about the author of Hebrews. You make me want to read this. I will see if I can get a copy somewhere.

For anyone interested, and who has Microsoft reader, I have Augustine's Confessions in e-book format, I'd be happy to share it.