Baptismal regeneration

[Lizabth]

I ported this response to a new thread, so I could ask a few more questions.

"Baptism is not our "obedience". It is God's work. Her regeneration occurred in her baptism (Titus 3:5). God does this, not us. When one comes to faith they are given that gift of faith by the Holy Spirit who leads them to baptism as our Lord instituted. We are saved by grace through faith which is that gift of God (Eph 2:8-9). Baptism is a means of grace whereby our faith is given and strengthened and our sins are forgiven. Lutherans teach, as the Bible does, that Baptism is necessary for salvation (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21), but not absolutely necessary. If one comes to faith and desires baptism as led by the Holy Spirit, but for some reason is denied that opportunity, either by inability, accidental death prior to baptism, etc., one is not necessarily lost because their faith was intact. However, if one claims to be a Christian but refuses baptism, then their faith is not present. They are denying the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the very definition of unbelief, and that is the one damnable sin"


So you would say that faith is not the same as regeneration? The Word leads to faith which leads to baptism which leads to regeneration which leads to salvation?

If one had an accident on the way to church for one's baptism, you really think that they MAY be lost? I'd agree that if one refuses baptism, is disobedient to our Lord's command, they are not a believer. Just as if a baptized infant grows up and denies the faith, he/she is not a believer.

From the LCMS website: "And as our Lutheran fathers have always taught, Baptism confirms the grace of God upon adults who have already come to faith, and strengthens them in their faith, as does the Lord's Supper."

This makes sense to me, and this is what I thought LCMS taught.

Again, I am not trying to be troublesome or argumentative. Just trying to understand.

 

[Lizabth]

One last question! How does LCMS view of baptism differ from this statement:


"Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ hath ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself, of remission of sins by his blood, and regeneration by his Spirit; of adoption, and resurrection unto everlasting life; and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church, and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord's."

 

[Moses Medina]

Belief and Practice - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod If you scroll to the bottom it has the LCMS views on Baptism.

 

[Lizabth]

Dario: yes, I know. That's why I posted that bit above(with which I fully agree), from the website:

"And as our Lutheran fathers have always taught, Baptism confirms the grace of God upon adults who have already come to faith, and strengthens them in their faith, as does the Lord's Supper."

In the case of professing adults, Baptism is a confirmation, a strengthening. Their faith is in Jesus Christ and His resurrection, not the waters of Baptism. As the LCMS website also says: the water, without the Word, is simply water. I think what troubles me when folks say "baptism saves", is that they are leaving out a rather important bit of the equation:


"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him."

 

[Lizabth]

And I am still curious if LCMS Lutherans would have any issues with this statement:

""Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ hath ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself, of remission of sins by his blood, and regeneration by his Spirit; of adoption, and resurrection unto everlasting life; and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church, and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord's."

BTW: we start our catechism classes tonight! I'll have to ask our pastor if the hows, whys and timetables of Baptismal regeneration can fall (for me, anyway), under that helpful category of 'mystery'.

 

[Tangible]

That appears to be from the Westminster Confession. While I would agree with everything there, it could be that the words mean something different to me than they would to a Calvinist who did not believe in Baptismal Regeneration and yet could still affirm that statement.

 

[Lizabth]

That appears to be from the Westminster Confession. While I would agree with everything there, it could be that the words mean something different to me than they would to a Calvinist who did not believe in Baptismal Regeneration and yet could still affirm that statement.

Correct. WSC. And I have been comfortable with those words for many a decade, as well.

I think the thing that would trouble some Calvinists with BR is the idea that baptism in and of itself saves. I don't think they've read Luther's SC, which clearly states is is not the water, but the Word with the water that regenerates.

That's why I personally feel it is quite important to always point to Jesus and the cross, not baptism, as the locus of our salvation. When it is said "baptism saves" many folk think only the actual machination(water) of the thing(sprinkling or dunking), not the power of the Word in it. When it is said, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.", many of the staunchest Calvinist would likely agree.

 

[LilLamb219]

When talking amongst Lutherans who understand the connection between the cross and baptism, I think it's a good thing to talk about how baptism saves. But here on CF in other parts of the boards, I KNOW I have to show them the connection of baptism and remind them that our Savior saves since they usually don't see the connection even when it's pointed out to them.

Correct. WSC. And I have been comfortable with those words for many a decade, as well.

I think the thing that would trouble some Calvinists with BR is the idea that baptism in and of itself saves. I don't think they've read Luther's SC, which clearly states is is not the water, but the Word with the water that regenerates.

That's why I personally feel it is quite important to always point to Jesus and the cross, not baptism, as the locus of our salvation. When it is said "baptism saves" many folk think only the actual machination(water) of the thing(sprinkling or dunking), not the power of the Word in it. When it is said, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.", many of the staunchest Calvinist would likely agree.

 

[Lizabth]

When talking amongst Lutherans who understand the connection between the cross and baptism, I think it's a good thing to talk about how baptism saves. But here on CF in other parts of the boards, I KNOW I have to show them the connection of baptism and remind them that our Savior saves since they usually don't see the connection even when it's pointed out to them.

Oh, absolutely. It's likely a cultural thing. For cradle-Lutherans, saying "baptism saves" makes perfect sense. To those of us coming in from the outside, not so much without the inclusion of Jesus' atoning death and resurrection.

An aside, I was just going over Luther's Small Catechism with explanations and there is NOTHING written there to which I could not subscribe. He clearly states that, should those who've come to faith via the Word perish before baptism, they are still saved: "It is only unbelief that condemns"(section 251ML SCw/explanations).

So, I personally cannot say that 'baptism saves' without some 'footnotes'. Which leads me to think I ought not say it at all. Or at least I ought to add, "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

Maybe I'll grow out of this nit-pickery?

 

[Tangible]

It took me a while to get used to the new Lutheran language.

 

[LilLamb219]

That is why Lutherans say that Baptism is necessary but not absolutely necessary.

Oh, absolutely. It's likely a cultural thing. For cradle-Lutherans, saying "baptism saves" makes perfect sense. To those of us coming in from the outside, not so much without the inclusion of Jesus' atoning death and resurrection.

An aside, I was just going over Luther's Small Catechism with explanations and there is NOTHING written there to which I could not subscribe. He clearly states that, should those who've come to faith via the Word perish before baptism, they are still saved: "It is only unbelief that condemns"(section 251ML SCw/explanations).

So, I personally cannot say that 'baptism saves' without some 'footnotes'. Which leads me to think I ought not say it at all. Or at least I ought to add, "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

Maybe I'll grow out of this nit-pickery?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi Lizabth,

The four words which I have highlighted below are the problem. It's not that Baptism is not symbolic, but those four words in the context of this quote say it is only symbolic of Gods Grace rather than a means of Grace.

So, yes, the LCMS and LCC would have issues with this statement, but not the Trinitarian Baptism that you received, and the grace that it imparted.

God bless!

And I am still curious if LCMS Lutherans would have any issues with this statement:

""Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ hath ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself, of remission of sins by his blood, and regeneration by his Spirit; of adoption, and resurrection unto everlasting life; and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church, and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord's."

BTW: we start our catechism classes tonight! I'll have to ask our pastor if the hows, whys and timetables of Baptismal regeneration can fall (for me, anyway), under that helpful category of 'mystery'.

 

[Lizabth]

To be a sign AND seal. Luther too calls it, in places, a sign, (having read Calvin, Cranmer and Luther, I don't think there is much difference between their takes on baptism, but Luther certainly says it best).

But, be that as it may...reading Luther's LC on the issues really has helped me a great deal in understanding the Lutheran take on baptism. Luther's warm logic always astounds me. Gorgeous, rich and sustaining theology. I love his linking of baptism to repentance. This makes terribly good sense to me, and I've never heard it quite put like this before. As it is worth a read by ANY christian, from the larger catechism:

"Lastly, we must also know what Baptism signifies, and why God has ordained just such external sign and ceremony for the Sacrament by which we are first received into the Christian Church. 65] But the act or ceremony is this, that we are sunk under the water, which passes over us, and afterwards are drawn out again. These two parts, to be sunk under the water and drawn out again, signify the power and operation of Baptism, which is nothing else than putting to death the old Adam, and after that the resurrection of the new man, both of which must take place in us all our lives, so that a truly Christian life is nothing else than a daily baptism, once begun and ever to be continued........ It is that which is born in us from Adam, angry, hateful, envious, unchaste, stingy, lazy, haughty, yea, unbelieving, infected with all vices, and having by nature nothing good in it. 67] Now, when we are come into the kingdom of Christ, these things must daily decrease, that the longer we live we become more gentle, more patient, more meek, and ever withdraw more and more from unbelief, avarice, hatred, envy, haughtiness. 68] This is the true use of Baptism among Christians, as signified by baptizing with water. Where this, therefore, is not practised, but the old man is left unbridled, so as to continually become stronger, that is not using Baptism, but striving against Baptism. 69] For those who are without Christ cannot but daily become worse, according to the proverb which expresses the truth, "Worse and worse-the longer, the worse." 70] If a year ago one was proud and avaricious, then he is much prouder and more avaricious this year, so that the vice grows and increases with him from his youth up. A young child has no special vice; but when it grows up, it becomes unchaste and impure, and when it reaches maturity, real vices begin to prevail the longer, the more.71] Therefore the old man goes unrestrained in his nature if he is not checked and suppressed by the power of Baptism. On the other hand, where men have become Christians, he daily decreases until he finally perishes. That is truly to be buried in Baptism, and daily to come forth again. 72] Therefore the external sign is appointed not only for a powerful effect, but also for a signification. 73] Where, therefore, faith flourishes with its fruits, there it has no empty signification, but the work [of mortifying the flesh] accompanies it; but where faith is wanting, it remains a mere unfruitful sign.
74] And here you see that Baptism, both in its power and signification, comprehends also the third Sacrament, which has been called repentance, 75] as it is really nothing else than Baptism. For what else is repentance but an earnest attack upon the old man [that his lusts be restrained] and entering upon a new life? Therefore, if you live in repentance, you walk in Baptism, which not only signifies such a new life, but also produces, begins, and exercises it. 76] For therein are given grace, the Spirit, and power to suppress the old man, so that the new man may come forth and become strong.
77] Therefore our Baptism abides forever; and even though some one should fall from it and sin, nevertheless we always have access thereto, that we may again subdue the old man. 78] But we need not again be sprinkled with water; for though we were put under the water a hundred times, it would nevertheless be only one Baptism, although the operation and signification continue and remain. 79] Repentance, therefore, is nothing else than a return and approach to Baptism, that we repeat and practise what we began before, but abandoned.
80] This I say lest we fall into the opinion in which we were for a long time, imagining that our Baptism is something past, which we can no longer use after we have fallen again into sin. The reason is, that it is regarded only according to the external act once performed [and completed]. 81] And this arose from the fact that St. Jerome wrote that repentance is the second plank by which we must swim forth and cross over after the ship is broken, on which we step and are carried across when we come into the Christian Church. 82] Thereby the use of Baptism has been abolished so that it can profit us no longer. Therefore the statement is not correct, or at any rate not rightly understood. For the ship never breaks, because (as we have said) it is the ordinance of God, and not a work of ours; but it happens, indeed, that we slip and fall out of the ship. Yet if any one fall out, let him see to it that he swim up and cling to it till he again come into it and live in it, as he had formerly begun.
83] Thus it appears what a great, excellent thing Baptism is, which delivers us from the jaws of the devil and makes us God's own, suppresses and takes away sin, and then daily strengthens the new man; and is and remains ever efficacious until we pass from this estate of misery to eternal glory.
84] For this reason let every one esteem his Baptism as a daily dress in which he is to walk constantly, that he may ever be found in the faith and its fruits, that he suppress the old man and grow up in the new. 85] For if we would be Christians, we must practise the work whereby we are Christians. 86] But if any one fall away from it, let him again come into it. For just as Christ, the Mercy-seat, does not recede from us or forbid us to come to Him again, even though we sin, so all His treasure and gifts also remain. If, therefore, we have once in Baptism obtained forgiveness of sin, it will remain every day, as long as we live, that is, as long as we carry the old man about our neck."

 

[Moses Medina]

Thanks for posting this!

 

[alexnbethmom]

lizabth - this should help you out, give this a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfryBnqBCLo

 

[Lizabth]

Yes, that was helpful. The 'continual' regeneration aspect of one's baptism, in faith, is a very sensible thought, rather than it being a 'one time and done' event. One might say, "baptism is saving you'.

I don't think I'd ever be able to say 'baptism saves' however, without adding saves 'through the resurrection of Jesus'. I think it gives a wrong idea to those not in 'the know' that baptism is the work that saves you. That baptism becomes the thing, not one of several means.

Just from an 'outsiders' POV.

Did enjoy our first catechism class. I really do love the warmth/richness found in the Lutheran faith, something sorely lacking in the reformed. Lutherans celebrate the Incarnation, and the Resurrection and it's not sinful! What a concept. If you buy gas on a Sunday, you're not breaking the Sabbath.

I will probably always have some 'crypto-calvinist' in me, however. Some little niggling love of the 'doctrines of grace'. Of course, Luther was very wise when he said we should not delve too deeply into those sorts of things.

 

[Moses Medina]

lizabth - this should help you out, give this a watch:

Baptismal Regenabatman - YouTube

Thank you for this link! I have been going through his videos, they are very informative and great!

 

[Mediaeval]

Mark's thoughts mirrored my own. While Lutherans agree that baptism 'is a sign and seal', they go on to affirm that baptism effects what it signifies and seals.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark's thoughts mirrored my own. While Lutherans agree that baptism 'is a sign and seal', they go on to affirm that baptism effects what it signifies and seals.