Baptism

[Lotar]

Old Testament Circumcision Analogous
The precept of circumcision is to be noted for use against the ragings of the Anabaptists. For they hold that Baptism should be repeated and that adults only should be baptized, because infants do not have use of their intellect and where this is laking there can be no faith. But tell me: Circumcision is of benifit, as we have said, only because of faith. Now, God has enjoined the circumcision of infants on the eighth day and has given a very strong promise that He will care for them and preserve them. Therefore either the command of circumcision was futile, or infants, too, who are without all uses of their intellect, must have believed and through circumcision must have obtained the rightousness which Abraham obtained before he recieved the rite. For the promise is given to the circumcised that they are the people of God and that God will be their God, that is, they enjoy the fellowship of the kingdom of God, justified by that faith which justifies, which God gives them through His Spirit.
-Martin Luther

Comments?

 

[Rechtgläubig]

Comments?

Amen.

 

[BBAS 64]

Old Testament Circumcision Analogous
The precept of circumcision is to be noted for use against the ragings of the Anabaptists. For they hold that Baptism should be repeated and that adults only should be baptized, because infants do not have use of their intellect and where this is laking there can be no faith. But tell me: Circumcision is of benifit, as we have said, only because of faith. Now, God has enjoined the circumcision of infants on the eighth day and has given a very strong promise that He will care for them and preserve them. Therefore either the command of circumcision was futile, or infants, too, who are without all uses of their intellect, must have believed and through circumcision must have obtained the rightousness which Abraham obtained before he recieved the rite. For the promise is given to the circumcised that they are the people of God and that God will be their God, that is, they enjoy the fellowship of the kingdom of God, justified by that faith which justifies, which God gives them through His Spirit.
-Martin Luther
Comments?

Lotar,

Good thread! I have some ideas about this issue but my conclusions are no where complete on this issue. So I will read very closely the posts here.

Here are some of my thoughts, The Jews of the OT time where God's people by way of the predeterminate will of God "in the line Abraham". The circumcised Jew was not always in communition with God, Just because he was circumcised did not mean he was "saved".

I see baptism the same way just because we are baptized does not mean we are saved.

Not a lot of time now, but that is some of my thoughts on this issue.


For His Glory Alone !

BBAS

 

[Blackhawk]

Old Testament Circumcision Analogous
The precept of circumcision is to be noted for use against the ragings of the Anabaptists. For they hold that Baptism should be repeated and that adults only should be baptized, because infants do not have use of their intellect and where this is laking there can be no faith. But tell me: Circumcision is of benifit, as we have said, only because of faith. Now, God has enjoined the circumcision of infants on the eighth day and has given a very strong promise that He will care for them and preserve them. Therefore either the command of circumcision was futile, or infants, too, who are without all uses of their intellect, must have believed and through circumcision must have obtained the rightousness which Abraham obtained before he recieved the rite. For the promise is given to the circumcised that they are the people of God and that God will be their God, that is, they enjoy the fellowship of the kingdom of God, justified by that faith which justifies, which God gives them through His Spirit.
-Martin Luther

Comments?

He makes a good point and this is one of the doctrines I have been questioning. However does the point that circumcism was a rite done on the 8th day mean that baptism should be done on infants also? Is there such a direct connection between the two? Of course many would say yes. Calvin also believed in infant baptism because of his covenant theolgy. But do we have any Biblical examplesof infant baptism? I do not kow of any. All that I see is believer's baptism. It is all good to show such a direct connection between circumcism and baptism but I think we need to see if there are any examples in scripture or anywhere where it teaches infant baptism.

Oh and I think many believe that there is a connection between circumcism and baptism but the question is how close is that relationship? Do we have to baptize infants on the 8th day?

So I do think what Luther says in this passage gives some evidence for infant baptism but there needs to be much more.

 

[Lotar]

I was hoping this would be a more popular topic

I was baptized as an infant, but when I was in 11th grade my parents decided to switch churches. After going around to different Lutheran churches, and not finding one that had anyone younger than 60 attending, we ended up going to Harvest (calvary chapel). Eventually most of my family changed their beliefs to those of Calvary Chapel, but I retained most of my Lutheran beliefs.

Anyways, a few years back, my parents decided we were all going to be baptized as a family. I was going through a period of not knowing what I believed on the subject (and still kinda am), but I went ahead anyways to keep the peace. I felt bad doing that, and knew I probably shouldn't have. I sort of pushed it to the back of my mind and repeated what the pastor had told me what baptism is supposed to mean.

Last weekend I bought the book "What Luther Says" (a crazy thick book, 1,667 pgs) even though I knew I would catch some grief from my parents, especially my mother who has turned into quite an addament fundie (she even threw away my Lutheran Catechism). So I was reading a bit on baptism, and I realized that the Baptist way really doesn't have any biblical support, but rather uses lack of evidence. And I read one quote from Luther that is making me seriously consider that we should have infant baptism. I'm going to type it up, but it's really long, so it might be a while.

 

[Lotar]

Unreasoning Infants Cannot Believe. Luther's Answer.

Let us look at the reason why they hold that children do not believe. They say: Since they have as yet not come to use their reason, they cannot hear God's Word; but where God's Word cannot be heard, there can be no faith; Rom 10:17: "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God," ect. Tell me, is one who judges God's works in this way, according to our ideas, speaking like a Christian? Children have not come to the use of their reason, you say, therefore they cannot believe? What if you have fallen from faith through this reason and children have come to faith through their unreason? My friend, what good does reason do when faith and God's Word are concerned? Is it not a fact that reason most violently resists faith and the Word of God so that because of it, no one can come to faith and accept God's grace, as Christ says Matt. 18:3: "Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." How often Christ points out to us that we must become children and fools and how often He condemns reason!
Again, tell me, what sort of reason did the little children have whom Christ caressed and blessed and assigned to heaven? Surely they, too, were as yet without reason. Why, then, does He order that they be brought to Him, and why does He bless them? Where did they get the faith that made them children of the kingdom of heaven? The fact is that just because they are unreasoning and foolish, they are better fitted to come to faith than the old and reasoning people whose way is always blocked by reason, which does not want to force its big head through the narrow door....
But since their reason so besets men, we must attack them with their own wisdom. Tell me, why do you baptize a man after he has come to the use of his reason? You reply: Hears the Word of God and believes. I ask: How do you know? You say: He confesses as much with his mouth. Should I say: What if he is lying and deceiving? After all, you cannot see his heart. Well then, if in this instance you baptize only because a man has outwardly professed faith but are uncertian of his faith and must wonder whether he has more within his heart than you observe, then neither his hearing nor confessing nor faith is of any avail; for it may be mere delusion and not a real faith. Who, then, are you to say that outward hearing and conffessing are necessary for Baptism, that where these are not present we should not baptize, and that where they are present we should?... Is it not true that you must admit: You have no right to do or to know more than the person to be baptized be brought before you and that you are asked to administer Baptism; and you should believe, or rather, simply commit to God whether or not he really believes in his heart. Thereby you are excused, and you baptize correctly....
Besides, tell me, where is the reason of the Christian believer while he is asleep, since his faith and God's grace admittedly never leave him? If, then, faith can continue without reason, why should it not also begin in children before reason is aware of is?...
Commit the faith to Him who commands them to be brought and baptize them at His command, saying: Lord, Thou dost bring them here and dost command them to be baptized. Therefore Thou wilt surely answer for them to be baptized. Therefore Thou wilt surely answer for them; on this I depend. I dare not drive them away or forbid them Baptism....

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Lotar,

I have studied this subject emmensley - so emmensely that I became worn and tired over the debate concerning infants. However, my conclusion (thus far) has lead me to believe that it is good and permissable to baptise and infant of a believer. I do not necessarliy believe that baptism replaces circumcision - but parralells it. the OT covenant sign was an everlasting covenant with the Jews - however, scripture paralells circumsision with baptism.

I do not believe baptism removes the stain of 'original sin', a popular RCC teaching, and I believe a Lutheran one as well. (but correct me if I am wrong). Likewise, circumcision did not save. However, I believe both sacraments enter the believer or child into the 'visable' church. The invisable, or 'spiritual' church is a matter of the heart when one places their faith in Christ.


I have not finished my study, and continue to search.

I am not against Believers Baptism in any way - I do, however, believe that the infants of Believers are included in the N.Covenant as they were in the Old.

My children are baptised, my third, due in April, will be Baptised also.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Catholics and some Mainline Protestants do infant baptism but these days it is regarded as generally symbolic only.

As far as circumcision, it was a rite designed to mold the men to the Hebrew nation, but most importantly to prevent infiltration of spies. If a Jewish soldier had any doubts about a fellow trooper he could simply request "show us your huuhuu!" and verify it; and of course it worked the other way in the Holocaust and the Pogroms. It's common in America but mostly because of our "Doctors know best" culture and not practiced religiously here except by American Jews and ersatz Angloisraelis like Identity Christianity.

 

[YourBrother]

Cold water dumped over your head(baptism) has the same effect as circumcision, but it's alot more gentle, less extreme.
Water puts out fire. Lust causes death.

 

[Drotar]

Infant baptism is not that serious an issue unless you connect it with covenant theology.

If you would like a good book to read Lotar, I suggest you PM me. I'll explain what I'm talking about and will be able to hook you up for FREE. Yeah. TTYL Jesus loves you!

BTW, long time no see. How've y'all been?

 

[dignitized]

Lotar: The bridge between the Anabaptists and those that allow for infant baptism is confirmation. Ever wonder why it is called confirmation? Because when a youth is confirmed, he has by that time reached the age of reason and will confirm and repeat the baptismal vows that we spoke on behalf of the child as an infant. Additionally, Confirmation parallels the Bar Mitzvah of the Jewish faith which transfers a youth from the carefree world of a child to the responsibilities of an adult.

 

[Lotar]

*attempts to resurrect this thread*

Lotar: The bridge between the Anabaptists and those that allow for infant baptism is confirmation. Ever wonder why it is called confirmation? Because when a youth is confirmed, he has by that time reached the age of reason and will confirm and repeat the baptismal vows that we spoke on behalf of the child as an infant. Additionally, Confirmation parallels the Bar Mitzvah of the Jewish faith which transfers a youth from the carefree world of a child to the responsibilities of an adult.

I was confirmed when I was 13, we had 2 years of classes and had to write a paper at the end. I'm sorry that my sisters had to miss out on the experience (and the party and presents ). I think that the Anabaptist style churches should have something similair, just to help cure the general ignorance of today's Christians.

One thing about my particular experience, is that pastors didn't do a very good job of teaching, we didn't even learn most of the basics from Luther's small catechism. I would have been much more adament about staying if I had read it.

 

[stantar]

I grew up in a Lutheran church and was baptized with a sprinkle and was confirmed. I got all sorts of head knowlege, but NO HEART KNOWLEGE! There is a HUGE difference here! A child can believe, but it is difficult for them to understand who Jesus really is. Off the topic question real quick- if we really had the faith of a child and the knowlege of who Jesus really is wouldn't we be out telling EVERYONE??? Anyways... The water baptism is an act of obedience and a picture of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection...It is a sign that you believe who Christ is, accept him as your savior, and thus been baptized, or emmerced in the Holy Spirit.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

How are babies supposed to repent? You must be born again.
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

When you are born again, you are baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Take the example of the eunuch
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Thats what Baptism is all about! It is supposed to be the first step of obedience.

Now Lotar, if you didn't want to do it, you shouldn't have! Same goes with prayer, attending church, reading your Bible, obedience based on guilt and obligation is in vain. You should do these things out of love and fear!

Keep in the faith~
Brian

 

[Lotar]

I grew up in a Lutheran church and was baptized with a sprinkle and was confirmed. I got all sorts of head knowlege, but NO HEART KNOWLEGE! There is a HUGE difference here! A child can believe, but it is difficult for them to understand who Jesus really is. Off the topic question real quick- if we really had the faith of a child and the knowlege of who Jesus really is wouldn't we be out telling EVERYONE???


How are babies supposed to repent? You must be born again.
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

When you are born again, you are baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Take the example of the eunuch
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Sorry for the reorganizing, makes it easier to adress.

I don't know about you, but as a child I was much more comfortable talking about Jesus to anybody. As a Sunday School teacher, I see the faith and love of these children who are supposively not old enough to make that choice. The bible say believe and be baptized, so, for those who grew up in the Church, when did you first believe? I certianly couldn't tell you, as far as I know I've always believed.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. [size=-1]But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."[/size]

[size=-1]If these children had no faith, would this not have been in vain? Did Christ ever do anything in vain?[/size]

[size=-1]Read my first quote from Luther, about circumcision.


[/size]

Anyways... The water baptism is an act of obedience and a picture of Christ's death, burial, and ressurection...It is a sign that you believe who Christ is, accept him as your savior, and thus been baptized, or emmerced in the Holy Spirit.
Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

If the bible says that there is only one baptism, then why do you say there are two?

Where in the bible does it say that it is just a symbol? Read what happened when Jesus was baptized:
Matthew 3:16
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,

The baptism of the Holy Spirit and of water are one.

Thats what Baptism is all about! It is supposed to be the first step of obedience.

Should we not make that step immediately? Again with circumcision, it was an act of obedience, yet they would circumcize infants on the 8th day.

Now Lotar, if you didn't want to do it, you shouldn't have! Same goes with prayer, attending church, reading your Bible, obedience based on guilt and obligation is in vain. You should do these things out of love and fear!

Keep in the faith~
Brian

Oh, I know I shouldn't have, I was caught in a time of weakness and uncertianty. I had already be baptized, all was was doing the second time was getting myself wet.

 

[admtaylor]

Baptism-

It's an act of obedience. I see nothing wrong with a CHILD being baptised if they understand who Christ really is in their hearts. Infants in my opinion don't have that ability. I don't see anything wrong with a dedication ceremony, but that's mainly for the parents and the church body stating that they will do their best to raise the child in the ways of the Lord.

-Adam

 

[Blackhawk]

Sorry for the reorganizing, makes it easier to adress.

I don't know about you, but as a child I was much more comfortable talking about Jesus to anybody. As a Sunday School teacher, I see the faith and love of these children who are supposively not old enough to make that choice. The bible say believe and be baptized, so, for those who grew up in the Church, when did you first believe? I certianly couldn't tell you, as far as I know I've always believed.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. [size=-1]But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."[/size]

[size=-1]If these children had no faith, would this not have been in vain? Did Christ ever do anything in vain?[/size]

[size=-1]Read my first quote from Luther, about circumcision.


[/size]

Hey Lotar I was wondering if you use this argument for infant baptism? I agree that children can be baptized but then again Children can understand and have faith. But infants as far as we can tell do not. I know Calvin uses these verses to support his rgument for padeobaptism but I think he was really reaching.

 

[Blackhawk]

Unreasoning Infants Cannot Believe. Luther's Answer.

Let us look at the reason why they hold that children do not believe. They say: Since they have as yet not come to use their reason, they cannot hear God's Word; but where God's Word cannot be heard, there can be no faith; Rom 10:17: "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God," ect. Tell me, is one who judges God's works in this way, according to our ideas, speaking like a Christian? Children have not come to the use of their reason, you say, therefore they cannot believe? What if you have fallen from faith through this reason and children have come to faith through their unreason? My friend, what good does reason do when faith and God's Word are concerned? Is it not a fact that reason most violently resists faith and the Word of God so that because of it, no one can come to faith and accept God's grace, as Christ says Matt. 18:3: "Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." How often Christ points out to us that we must become children and fools and how often He condemns reason!
Again, tell me, what sort of reason did the little children have whom Christ caressed and blessed and assigned to heaven? Surely they, too, were as yet without reason. Why, then, does He order that they be brought to Him, and why does He bless them? Where did they get the faith that made them children of the kingdom of heaven? The fact is that just because they are unreasoning and foolish, they are better fitted to come to faith than the old and reasoning people whose way is always blocked by reason, which does not want to force its big head through the narrow door....
But since their reason so besets men, we must attack them with their own wisdom. Tell me, why do you baptize a man after he has come to the use of his reason? You reply: Hears the Word of God and believes. I ask: How do you know? You say: He confesses as much with his mouth. Should I say: What if he is lying and deceiving? After all, you cannot see his heart. Well then, if in this instance you baptize only because a man has outwardly professed faith but are uncertian of his faith and must wonder whether he has more within his heart than you observe, then neither his hearing nor confessing nor faith is of any avail; for it may be mere delusion and not a real faith. Who, then, are you to say that outward hearing and conffessing are necessary for Baptism, that where these are not present we should not baptize, and that where they are present we should?... Is it not true that you must admit: You have no right to do or to know more than the person to be baptized be brought before you and that you are asked to administer Baptism; and you should believe, or rather, simply commit to God whether or not he really believes in his heart. Thereby you are excused, and you baptize correctly....
Besides, tell me, where is the reason of the Christian believer while he is asleep, since his faith and God's grace admittedly never leave him? If, then, faith can continue without reason, why should it not also begin in children before reason is aware of is?...
Commit the faith to Him who commands them to be brought and baptize them at His command, saying: Lord, Thou dost bring them here and dost command them to be baptized. Therefore Thou wilt surely answer for them to be baptized. Therefore Thou wilt surely answer for them; on this I depend. I dare not drive them away or forbid them Baptism....

I like Luther overall but he is really reaching here. I would ask him should we baptize everyone because anyone could be lying even if they say they do not believe? He is arguing from silence. He does not know what the infants believe or even if they do have that capacity. He also assumes that the children in the MAtthew passage did not have faith which I do not see how he can do. Basically it is much like Calvin's argument where he starts with his assumption and then finds scripture to prove it even if the scriptures are not really related.

 

[suzie]

baptism isnt a "replacement" of circumcision.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

baptism isnt a "replacement" of circumcision.

Replacement - no ...Paralelle - yes

 

[suzie]

Can you explain that hope?