What I was trying to explain to him was after our Lord died we did not need to be baptized anymore. We can if we want to but it is not needed!! That was my main point!
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Avelina, what do you think "baptized" meant in the Greek? I ask since I see nothing that Panevino has said that would violate the meaning of the Greek word "baptizo" and is cognates.
What I was trying to explain to him was after our Lord died we did not need to be baptized anymore. We can if we want to but it is not needed!! That was my main point!
Some thoughts:
It's only after the resurrection that our Lord commissioned His followers to go and baptize and make disciples. Thus Christ commissioned Baptism in the Great Commission.
Consistently the New Testament paints Baptism as the normative means by which we are brought into Christ, made Christians, and so on and so forth. In Acts 2, Peter says that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit through Baptism which is for "you and your children, and for all who are far off". Also saying that it is for the forgiveness of sins. In Romans 6 Paul says that in Baptism we have died to sin, we have been buried and resurrected with Jesus. In Galatians 3 Paul says that whoever has been baptized has "put on Christ".
Over and over again the value and importance of Baptism is enumerated in the Bible.
While God certainly isn't going condemn someone simply because they happened to have never been baptized, I don't think we can leave it as something unimportant or unessential.
Baptism is essential, in it is found a multitude of God's gracious promises, the very grace by which we are saved.
-CryptoLutheran
Crypto are you actually saying that if i do not get baptized i'm not going to heaven????
We need to be careful. Baptism is required because Christ commanded us to go out and baptize and gave us Baptism and because of everything Baptism confers and what God promises in Baptism. So to say "it's not that important" is simply not true since Scripture says it's tremendously important. That said, this isn't a black or white issue. It's not Baptism = "Going to Heaven" and no Baptism = "Going to Hell". Salvation is never a matter of such a simplistic dichotomy.Cmon your smarter than that. We are all covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. Remember I said I wasn't against baptism, I said it wasn't necessary to get into heaven.
Actually I specifically pointed out that God isn't going to condemn us on that basis alone, or at least I don't believe He will.
We need to be careful. Baptism is required because Christ commanded us to go out and baptize and gave us Baptism and because of everything Baptism confers and what God promises in Baptism. So to say "it's not that important" is simply not true since Scripture says it's tremendously important. That said, this isn't a black or white issue. It's not Baptism = "Going to Heaven" and no Baptism = "Going to Hell". Salvation is never a matter of such a simplistic dichotomy.
It's about God's grace. The normal way God graciously and freely unites us to His Son is in Baptism, an act of Grace for us, apart from our works.
This doesn't mean God can't do this outside of Baptism. God will do what He will do, save whomever He will save, through any means He so chooses.
It is our job to recognize the Means of Grace revealed to us, God's Word and Sacraments, and if God moves and acts outside of those normal means then that is His prerogative. I wholly trust that God is working and graciously conferring His saving mercy in lives and places and in ways I can't even imagine. It's not for me to limit God's mercy, but to recognize where God's mercy is sure and certain. God has given us His Word and Sacraments as sure and certain Means to accomplish what He has given them to do: to confer to us the efficient and sufficient saving merit of Jesus Christ, in who alone is our salvation.
-CryptoLutheran
I agree with all that CryptoLutheran has written above, and understand that it reflects Catholic understanding of the sacrament of baptism.
Many Catholics believe one must be water baptized to be saved. Why is this when there's no scripture that say this? In fact, there have been many instances in scripture where people were saved without baptism (the dying theif, Peter's confession). Are the Catholics who say this saying that Christ's sacrifice isn't enough to save them? If anyone believes this way, can they use scripture to support it?
Hi guys.
Correct me if I'm wrong (which is likely!)
1. avelina (good Italian nickname by the way) is saying there is a "baptism of spirit" (or gift of grace) at repentance and that is all that is really efficacious.
2. As a Catholic and I assume Lutherans also, we agree there is a gift of grace in repentance (with repentance itself only possible because of grace)
However we would not stop there, as we would say there is sanctifying grace provided as a gift by baptism in water. Ie water and spirit John 3:5 and the example of the baptism of Jesus.
3. So Catholics agree in part with avelina but would strongly refuse to say that it is "not really needed" ie not efficacious.
But again, I don't want to misrepresent avelina.
I know
Lutherans also consider water baptism a sacrament.
Hi Crypto,
Just curious so that I can do some further research for myself. You wrote: While God certainly isn't going condemn someone simply because they happened to have never been baptized, I don't think we can leave it as something unimportant or unessential
Is there a Scripture upon which you base that certainty?
To Avelina:
Friend, if you have not been baptized, then I would strongly, strongly enourage you to check your faith. Here's the first test: Can you see the kingdom of God?
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
It's a little more nuanced that that, but ignoring the first scentence, here is some examples of scripture that could be consideredOriginally Posted by royallighting7
Many Catholics believe one must be water baptized to be saved. Why is this when there's no scripture that say this?
No......
Are the Catholics who say this saying that Christ's sacrifice isn't enough to save them?
OK, I see. I disagree, but I see!What I was trying to explain to him was after our Lord died we did not need to be baptized anymore. We can if we want to but it is not needed!! That was my main point!
Id like to simply interject a comment and offer a bit of historical context to this discussion regarding baptism. I think it is difficult for non-historically oriented christianities to understand the importance Baptism held to the earlier Judao-Christianities. I do not blame them, I simply think they do not share the same context as those christianities that still value baptism.
For example, I grew up in a Christian church that had little knowledge and understanding regarding Christian baptism. Part of the congregation believed baptism was somehow important for some vague reasons and others had no knowledge of its import and felt no need to undergo tubbing, as our minister called baptism. The minister himself did not have knowledge enough to possess any strong opinion either way. So, once a month he would baptize those who wanted it and did not pressure those who did not want baptism. It was simply an unknown subject to such Christians. We had lost the knowledge of such things.
Part of the value of studying the Early Judao-Christian texts is to gain a clearer view of the characteristics of the earliest Christianities; in this case : their doctrines and practices concerning baptism. Study of early Judao-Christian texts reveals the evolution of doctrines and practices and clarifies why some things are no longer important to modern christianities when they were very important to the early Judao-Christians.
Such loss of early contexts and prior knowledge and change in doctrines and practices has always occurred. Moses laments that the Children of Israel : will abandon me and choose to follow the idols of the gentiles they will worship the false gods they will violate every sacred assembly and covenant Sabbath the very ones I am commanding them today to observe. (The Words of Moses 1Q22).
The phenomenon of changing and evolving orthodoxies applies to ordinances as well. For example, regarding baptism, New Testament Barnabas (sinaiticus) observed : concerning the water, it is written with reference to Israel that they would never accept the baptism that brings forgiveness of sins, but would create a substitute for themselves." (Bar 11:1).
This same principle of changing doctrines applied to ancient Christianity just as it applied to the Jews as Paul reminds the Galatians : I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. (gal 1:6)
The Christianities today who know longer understand the original import and essence of Baptism, have simply done what moses said Israel would do and what Paul said the Galatians were doing. The result is a shift in Christian interpretation that has lasted long enough that the new interpretations became orthodox and the loss of early Christian traditions do not seem important to modern Christians since the modern interpretations support the change in tradition. This was not true of the early Christianities when Baptism was still very important.
For example, The Catechumens (or early converts to Christianity) the early Judao-Christian prayers still indicate the importance of baptism and important preparations to be done by the convert BEFORE they were allowed baptism :
Let the one who is to be instructed in piety be taught before baptism: knowledge concerning the unbegotten God, understanding concerning the only begotten son, and full assurance concerning the Holy spirit. 2 Let him learn the order of a distinguished creation, the sequence of providence, the judgment seats of different legislation, why the world came to be and why man was appointed a world citizen. 3 Let him understand his own nature, of what sort it is. Let him be educated in how God punished the wicked...5 And how God, though he foresaw, did not abandon the race of men, but summoned them at various times from error and folly into the understanding of truth....6 Let the one who offers himself learn during his instruction these things and those that are related to them. (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - # 8 Instruction for the Catechumens - AposCon 7.39.2-4)
The importance of having such knowledge before baptism was partly because baptism represented a serious covenant made with God and one was to understand the choice and commitment one was making before making the covenant associated with baptism.
BAPTISM WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY TO THESE ANCIENT CHRISTIANITIES
Though most modern biblical texts have Jesus teaching Nicodemus regarding the spirit and its interaction with every one who is born of the spirit (γεγεννημενος εκ του πνευματος - John 3:8). However, the earlier greek texts such as 4th century Sinaiticus, the majority of Old Latin witnesses, and Syrus Sinaiticus, etc) read γεγεννημενος εκ του υδατος και του πνευματος with every one who is born of the water and the spirit. Such early biblical texts were more representative of baptismal theology.
The early Christians themselves describe a theology that more clearly valued baptism.
For example, they taught that Baptism is a great thing, ...Because if people receive it they will live (The gospel of Phillip).
In his vision of the church as a Tower built upon a lake of water, New Testament Hermas (sinaiticus) asks the angel, Why is the tower built upon water, madam?, the angel replies it is because your life was saved and will be saved through water. (Her 11:5) This descent into the water of Baptism, was associated with a great blessing and thus it was taught:
blessed are those who, having set their hope on the cross, descended into the water, because he speaks of the reward in its season (New Testament Barnabas 11:8 - sinaiticus)
Barnabas explained one meaning underlying this scriptural symbolism :
By this he means that while we descend into the water laden with sins and dirt, we rise up bearing fruit in our heart and with fear and hope in Jesus in our spirits. (Bar 11:11).
The increase in hope was connected to the promise and covenant within the ordinance. Because it was a covenant, it was offered only to those who were WILLING and WANTING (and thus worthy) to make such a the covenant. Thus the officer of the guard, Annaias being learned in the law, came to know our Lord Jesus Christ form the sacred scriptures, which I approached with faith could claim he Was accounted worthy of holy baptism. (The Gospel of Nicodemus - Prologue)
TO THESE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS, BAPTISM WAS A SYMBOL OF A COVENANT BETWEEN GOD AND MANKIND
Just as a seal was a symbolic Hallmark or sign that authenticated, confirmed, or attested to a thing, Baptism was seen as a similar symbol :
For before a man, he said, bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead, but when he receives the seal, he lays aside his deadness and receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water; so they go down into the water dead and they come up alive. Thus this seal was proclaimed to them as well, and they made use of it in order that they might enter the kingdom of God. ( Her 93:34)
Though baptism was a physical ritual, the ritual was simply a symbol of a spiritual reality. The critical thing that was happening was invisible. The covenant itself was NOT the physical ordinance, but rather it was the internal commitment and changing of the heart of the person. The physical ordinance is merely a sign that a covenant was made.
Though the physical ritual was imitated repeatedly by later Christian counterfeits, the actual covenant that took place within the heart; the authority to perform the ordinance; and the associated internal conditions could not (and still cannot) BE imitated nor counterfeited. The commandments and the ordinances of the Lord were always written on the tablets of your hearts (I Clement 2:8) and the Lord knows our hearts....
AUTHENTIC BAPTISM WAS ASSOCIATED WITH AUTHENTIC REPENTANCE
In the authentic covenant, one may claim :
And he shall wash my soul with a laving from the land, And he shall raise me on wings upwards to dwellings. And shall set me in the treasure-house of the Father, where no thieves shall loiter. (Govishn Ig Griv Zindag)
However, Christian counterfeiters became willing to baptize those unfit and unwilling as though God could be fooled into giving the Gift of the Holy Ghost to those who were simply made wet. They did not commit to have FAITH, to become HUMBLE and importantly, to REPENT of their sins before authentic baptism. The authentic promise was made : in the TRUTH of Your covenant to cleanse ONESELF from uncleanness and THEN he shall enter the water (A BAPTISMAL LITURGY 4Q414) The counterfeiters lacked faith, repentance and sincerity, yet still complained (both then and now) when they have no holy Ghost.
If the convert did not uphold his side of the covenant of Baptism by humility and authentic repentance before undergoing the ordinance of baptism, then the Lord was under no obligation to uphold his side of the covenant of cleansing and bestowal of the Holy Spirit. The sequence was very important in this case (and in other cases).
and there are the two commandments: Unless they are performed in proper sequence they leave one open to the greatest sin. It is the same with the other commandments. (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 8:9)
The authentic sequence was always to cleanse oneself by sincere and humble repentance, before baptism.
...in the truth of Your covenant to cleanse oneself from uncleanness and then he shall enter the water (A BAPTISMAL LITURGY 4Q414)
This is not to say one could not become humble and repent later, merely that the ordinance, was of no benefit without Faithful humility and repentance. It was because there were qualifications to the authentic covenants he was willing to submit to, Annanias said he was accounted worthy of baptism.
The same principle was true of the counterfeits that was true of the honest refusals. The outward ordinance, by itself, had no efficacy and was good for nothing. The authentic ordinance itself could never be of benefit to those who refused to humble themselves in repentance, and who did not honestly make the covenant to God that was associated with baptism. Of those refusing authentic entry into the society of believers it was taught :
ceremonies of atonement cannot restore HIS innocence, neither cultic waters HIS purity. He cannot be sanctified by baptism - for only through the spirit pervading Gods true society can there be atonement for a mans ways and so be joined to his truth by his Holy Spirit, purified from all iniquity only thus can he really receive the purifying watersand be purged by the cleansing flow - (CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11)
Anciently it was noted that counterfeit ordinances were being performed and those involved were warned :
If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything and says, I am a Christian, he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded". (The gospel of Phillip)
How many times have the atheists and others without faith in revelation from God claimed Ive prayed but received no answer. and then conclude the principle themselves are at fault, never mind that they unplugged the machine. One simply cannot counterfeit the authentic covenant and commitment God requires for the baptismal covenant to be in full force and for the tangible blessings which accompany authentic baptism to be manifest.
I had not intended on dwelling on how Baptism became abused and relegated to forgotten things in the more modern Christianities, however, as I review the early texts, the texts themselves seemed so often to dwell on such things in an increasingly resigned and unfruitful attempt to prevent this ordinance from abuse and dishonor among Christianities.
I believe that the evolution of the various christianities in differing directions with differing interpretations explains why some christianities still value baptism while other christianities do not feel it is necessary.
Clearly.
twneacneiu
And doesn't it say that tradition makes void the word of God.
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