Baptism Question

'Ello! First of all, it's great being back here after such a long time. Anyway, Question time! As a newer Christian, I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

(WDGL) said:

I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

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In order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

If people believe with all their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), they can get baptized anywhere there's water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Believers can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist church.

Besides getting water baptized, believers also need to get Holy Spirit baptized (1 Corinthians 12:13, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-47, John 3:5). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, because it isn't usually automatically given to them the moment they become believers; that's why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive the Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as speaking in tongues is one of the lesser gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:8-11, 1 Corinthians 12:28, 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Many believers haven't yet experienced the Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they've come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it's no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive the Holy Spirit baptism at a pentecostal or charismatic-type congregation.

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Some people point to what they consider to be exceptions with regard to water baptism, such as the thief on the cross, or deathbed, battlefield, or prison conversions. But people just assume that the thief on the cross hadn't been baptized. The Bible doesn't say that he hadn't been baptized. He could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft.

Also, baptism is only a New Covenant/New Testament requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12), and the New Covenant/New Testament wasn't put into legal effect until Jesus Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died, so baptism wasn't yet a requirement for ultimate salvation.

But now that Jesus' death is past, believers have to obey all of his New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Romans 2:6-8), including Jesus' commandment that every believer get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, cf. Acts 2:38).

Also, a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing to get baptized, without repentance.

Regarding prison conversions, people can get baptized while in prison.

Regarding those who come into faith on their deathbed or on a battlefield, Jesus will give them enough time to get baptized; just as, for example, if believers commit a sin, Jesus will give them enough time to repent (e.g. Revelation 2:21).

Even if someone who comes into faith during a death-bed or battlefield conversion is paralyzed or gravely wounded, he can still be baptized by people going out of their way to help him (cf. Mark 2:3-5) by lifting him off his bed or stretcher and immersing him in a tub of water or in a natural body of water. And if his doctors or medics warn that such a maneuver will only hasten his death, Jesus could surely see to it that it doesn't. And even if it does, what would it matter to give up a little more time of this mortal life (especially in pain) in order to attain ultimate salvation (cf. Mark 8:35, John 12:25) and to get to go to be with Jesus in heaven at the moment of death (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23)?

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Some people feel that baptism can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for us, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so we are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to our baptism (e.g. Acts 8:36-38, cf. John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so we will be ultimately saved by our works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

(WDGL) said:

'Ello! First of all, it's great being back here after such a long time. Anyway, Question time! As a newer Christian, I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

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I would say yes, I think God is merciful and its not your fault that you would have died so soon. But still, baptism is the ritual through which we enter the Church, so it is something everyone should do. Christ makes it pretty clear that Baptism is very important, and the Church Fathers all echo that.

God says that to be saved, one must believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is who He says He is.

Baptism is an act of obedience that we are to do after we are saved. we really shouldn't waste time doing this, but it's not going to get us sent to hell if we don't rush to the nearest baptismal. water baptism is an outward profession of the inward change that occurred when Christ washed away our sins (when we got saved.)

there is a different baptism though, that is required for salvation. this is the baptism of the Spirit. and no, i don't mean speaking in tongues. Jesus and the apostles spoke of the baptism of the spirit throughout the new testament. to my understanding, baptism of the spirit coincides with the moment we are saved.

if water baptism were required, then that would mean there really wasn't sufficient grace. it would also mean that Jesus lied when he told the thief on the cross that he would be with him that day in heaven. it would also mean that countless people who accepted Christ at a time in their lives when they were unable to go get baptized really were going to hell despite having given their life to Jesus.

you're going to here conflicting opinions on this subject, and in fact you already have. don't listen to us. listen to God. pray. ask Him to assure you of your salvation.

and when you get a chance, be obedient and get baptized in water, and make that public profession of your faith.

(WDGL) said:

'Ello! First of all, it's great being back here after such a long time. Anyway, Question time! As a newer Christian, I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

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The answer you receive will vary depending on the theological outlook of the person responding.

I'm Catholic. According to Catholic teaching, Baptism is an efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit. It's the normal way in which a believer receives the remission of original and personal sin, begins a new life in Christ and the Holy Spirit, and is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ. This belief is based in the Biblical texts, which say "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ". (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

(WDGL) said:

'Ello! First of all, it's great being back here after such a long time. Anyway, Question time! As a newer Christian, I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

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You're still saved.

Forget what everyone says and look at what the bible says. "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved" That is what it says. That should be your starting point to answer your question.

(WDGL) said:

'Ello! First of all, it's great being back here after such a long time. Anyway, Question time! As a newer Christian, I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

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WDGL,
I am going to make this as simple as Jesus made it:

Please read John chapter 3.
Then, read Acts chapters 1 and 15.
Then read Ephesians chapter 2.
Then read 1 Timothy chapter 1.

Water baptism is an outward display of an inward change in one's existence. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus. It is a matter of believing in Jesus as Savior and Lord of your life. If you die before you are baptized in water, you are still saved by grace through faith in Jesus, IF YOU BELIEVE in Him as you personal Savior and Lord of your life.

Any other requirement of baptism is being a judge, and that my brother in Christ, is not ANYONE's job here on earth.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Additionally, please take those snippets of one or two Scriptures used to demand baptism as a requirement of salvation and read the entire passages in context. Read the chapter before them and the chapter after them if they are in a Gospel according to.......If they are in one of Paul's letters to the various Churches of the 1st century, read the entire letter in one sitting as it was written by Paul, so that you get the full flavor of that letter, not just someone's eisegesis of the one or two verses taken out of context to show their slant on the Good News of Jesus.

You will notice that when I post Scripture, I seldom ever post one or two verses. There is a very real and valid reason for that.

Do I believe in water immersion baptism? Absolutely YES. Is it a requirement of Salvation? NO, but it needs to be done as soon as possible after accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior of your life, because it has spiritual blessings that you cannot understand nor fully appreciate if you do not get "dunked" to show that you have died to self and your old ways and been resurrected with Christ to new life in the spirit. But, in the mean time, between salvation by grace through faith in Jesus and water immersion baptism, you are still saved and yoru sins are still forgiven.

Again, be blessed,
Lee52

Clearly the reason there is a dove hovering over the newly Baptized Christian's head, inside a closed Church structure, is to demonstrate that Baptism is nothing special. [/sarcasm]

Lee52 said:

Additionally, please take those snippets of one or two Scriptures used to demand baptism as a requirement of salvation and read the entire passages in context.

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Note that more than just "one or two" scriptures have been referenced which show baptism to be a requirement for ultimate salvation, and that it hasn't been proven that any scripture has been referenced contrary to its context.

In order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Bible2 said:

Note that more than just "one or two" scriptures have been referenced which show baptism to be a requirement for ultimate salvation, and that it hasn't been proven that any scripture has been referenced contrary to its context.

In order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

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Questions for you: Do you pick up poisonous snakes? Do you drink poison without adverse affects? How many demons have you driven out of others? How many languages have you spoken to further the Gospel? Mark 16

Do you still sin? Romans 6

Did baptism save you, or faith? Galatians 3

Do you sell all that you have and come together with everyone in your congregation and give the proceeds of the sale of all your property that none should have need? Acts 2

Just how many people did Paul baptize? Why did Paul say he was not called to baptize?

If a person is baptized are they necessarily saved?

You don't have to answer any of those questions, they are rhetorical, because most born-again believers already know the answers. One must be careful to not get too legalistic with Christ Jesus, who said that He came to save those who will believe in Him, not to condemn the the world. I can take 100 Scriptures out of context and make them say anything and still not be correct in the spirit of what God intended with them.

Now, once again, do I believe in water immersion baptism? ABSOLUTELY. It is a commandment from my Lord and Savior to show outwardly the change that He affected within me. AND, I was saved by grace through faith in Him BEFORE I followed His command to be baptized.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Lee52 said:

Questions for you: Do you pick up poisonous snakes? Do you drink poison without adverse affects?

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Regarding Mark 16:18, Christians must never test God by purposely, unnecessarily placing themselves in harm's way (Matthew 4:5-7). Just as Christians shouldn't throw themselves off buildings in order to test Psalms 91:12, so they shouldn't purposely pick up dangerous snakes or purposely drink poison in order to test Mark 16:18, for Mark 16:18 refers to, for example, accidental cases of Christians taking up snakes, such as when picking up a pile of wood (Acts 28:3-6).

Lee52 said:

How many demons have you driven out of others?

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Regarding Mark 16:17a, not every believer is given the ability to cast out demons, just as not every believer is given the ability to speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29-30).

Lee52 said:

How many languages have you spoken to further the Gospel?

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Regarding Mark 16:17b, tongues are one of the spiritual gifts which the Holy Spirit miraculously gives to believers (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which believers can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized believers will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the lesser gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:28, 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different believers receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which can be understood by humans (Acts 2:4,8) while other tongues are languages which can't be understood by humans (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1).

Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, because when they're prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28) they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20), to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, and then spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b), their interpretations edify the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God they are singing the "spiritual songs" which Paul distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

Paul sets no restrictions on how much believers can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home, or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: e.g. 1 Samuel 1:13a,17); indeed, Paul prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But with regard to church meetings, Paul sets very strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: they must never be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there's someone present who can spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28).

And even when a tongues-interpreter is present in a church meeting, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10b), so that they can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13).

Lee52 said:

Mark 16

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Note that nothing in Mark 16 contradicts the fact that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Lee52 said:

Do you still sin?

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When a saved person commits a sin, he must repent from it (Revelation 3:19). For a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Lee52 said:

Romans 6

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Note that nothing in Romans 6 contradicts the fact that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Lee52 said:

Did baptism save you, or faith?

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As has been pointed out, some people feel that baptism can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for us, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so we are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to our baptism (e.g. Acts 8:36-38, cf. John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so we will be ultimately saved by our works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Lee52 said:

Galatians 3

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Note that nothing in Galatians 3 contradicts the fact that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3-11, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Regarding: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3):

This means that the works of the Mosaic law (especially its physical circumcision: Galatians 6:12-13) are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14, 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8), for the Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12).

Galatians 3:2-3 means that works of the Mosaic law, works of the flesh/not faith (Galatians 3:12), can't make believers perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 isn't contradicting the fact that both faith and continued works of faith are required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21).

Lee52 said:

Do you sell all that you have and come together with everyone in your congregation and give the proceeds of the sale of all your property that none should have need?

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People must forsake everything they have if they are to be the disciples of Jesus (Luke 14:33).

Lee52 said:

Acts 2

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Note that nothing in Acts 2 contradicts the fact that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Acts 2:38, Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3-11, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Acts 22:16).

Lee52 said:

Just how many people did Paul baptize?

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The Bible doesn't say, but it does show that Paul made sure that people got baptized, whether by him personally or by someone else, right away after their coming into faith due to his preaching (Acts 16:15,33, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:5, 1 Corinthians 1:14-16).

Lee52 said:

Why did Paul say he was not called to baptize?

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In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul was in no way contradicting his own teaching of the necessity of baptism for ultimate salvation (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27). He simply meant that God didn't want Paul himself to spend his precious apostolic time personally dunking every single person who got saved through his preaching, when others in the church could do that for Paul, for any believer can dunk new believers. Also, Paul didn't want to personally baptize a lot of people, so as to avoid as much as possible any charge that he baptized people in his own name (1 Corinthians 1:14-15).

Lee52 said:

If a person is baptized are they necessarily saved?

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No. Baptism is useless for salvation (and isn't even allowed) unless the one being baptized is a believer with all his heart (Acts 8:36-38, Mark 16:16). Also, believers need to be not just sprinkled, but water-immersion (burial) baptized in order to be ultimately saved (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12).

Lee52 said:

You don't have to answer any of those questions, they are rhetorical, because most born-again believers already know the answers. One must be careful to not get too legalistic with Christ Jesus, who said that He came to save those who will believe in Him, not to condemn the the world.

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Regarding "legalism", note that grace sets Christians free from the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 6:14b, John 1:17), not from the New Covenant/New Testament law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 15:10, 1 Corinthians 9:21, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28), the commandments of which (John 14:15) are those he gave, for example, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19-7:29) and in the writings of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37, 1 Thessalonians 4:2).

For while Christians are initially saved by grace by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), and don't have to obey the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Galatians 2:16), they do have to obey the New Covenant/New Testament law of Jesus Christ in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

It's by performing Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments that Christians can be sure that they're truly loving him (John 14:21a,23a,24, 1 John 5:3) and that they're remaining in his love (John 15:10, John 14:21b,23b, Jude 1:21).

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Regarding Christ not coming "to condemn the world", John 3:17a means that God didn't send Jesus into the world to condemn the world before Jesus' second coming, when Jesus will condemn the world (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, cf. Luke 12:49).

Also, even some saved people, at the judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at the second coming of Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51, Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12).

That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Lee52 said:

I can take 100 Scriptures out of context and make them say anything and still not be correct in the spirit of what God intended with them.

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Note that it hasn't been proven that any scripture has been referenced contrary to its context, or contrary to God's intent.

Lee52 said:

Now, once again, do I believe in water immersion baptism? ABSOLUTELY. It is a commandment from my Lord and Savior to show outwardly the change that He affected within me. AND, I was saved by grace through faith in Him BEFORE I followed His command to be baptized.

Click to expand...

Note again that baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for us, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so we are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to our baptism (e.g. Acts 8:36-38, cf. John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so we will be ultimately saved by our works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Bible2, nice avoidance of answering for yourself and putting everything on others. To me, that sounds very prig and self righteous.

BTW, I cannot find "ultimate salvation" nor "ultimately saved" in any translation into English of any Bible that I have access to at home nor online. There is only one salavation and one way to get saved from our sins: acceptance of Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord. There is no fear in the Lord. The spirit of fear is not from God.

This forum is for Christian Advice, not for Christians to bicker amongst ourselves.

Be blessed,
Lee52

(WDGL) said:

'Ello! First of all, it's great being back here after such a long time. Anyway, Question time! As a newer Christian, I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

Click to expand...

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:9

Paul doesn't demand baptism: rather, reliance (faith) in Christ is what's required of you.

Lee52 said:

Bible2, nice avoidance of answering for yourself and putting everything on others. To me, that sounds very prig and self righteous.

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We can all get along just fine even though we may have some doctrinal disagreements, so long as we don't fall into ad hominem, that is, so long as we don't take the focus off of a discussion of doctrine and what the Bible says, and instead begin to focus on attacking people as individuals (Titus 3:2, 2 Timothy 2:24-25).

Regarding "putting everything on others", note that there's been no exclusion of any believer from what's been said regarding the Biblical requirements for ultimate salvation.

Regarding "self-righteousness", no believer should think that there can be any self-righteousness, for apart from Jesus Christ everyone is desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) and can't do anything good (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b).

Lee52 said:

BTW, I cannot find "ultimate salvation" nor "ultimately saved" in any translation into English of any Bible that I have access to at home nor online. There is only one salavation and one way to get saved from our sins: acceptance of Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord. There is no fear in the Lord. The spirit of fear is not from God.

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Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture.

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), whereas ultimate salvation is by both faith and works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal physical bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11b), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8b, Romans 8:23-25) and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect or change their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) just like the immortal physical body he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation:

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith unto the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (e.g. Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-29, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue in good works and obedience unto the end (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, 1 John 2:17b), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit unto the end (Hebrews 10:26-31, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-30), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive others (Matthew 6:14-15), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to be reconciled to everyone whom they've ever wronged and who could still be holding a grudge against them (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-40), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that (e.g. 3 John 1:10b, in context of 3 John 1:5-8).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28a) is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (e.g. 1 Corinthians 14:39b, 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the text of the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness unto the end (Romans 11:20-22), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome unto the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

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All this is said not to engenger any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22). Believers are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the coming judgment of believers (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at the second coming of Jesus, when some believers will end up losing their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51, Hebrews 10:26-31), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive us into not having this fear of God, for he knows that it's the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in wickedness (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they're on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4) when the entire Bible is taken into consideration, instead of taking just a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

Some believers mistakenly think that they shouldn't have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 1 John 4:18 and 2 Timothy 1:7.

Regarding 1 John 4:18, it's only if saved people perfectly love God that they won't misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24) and so won't have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose all their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without any repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of a temporal chastisement (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastisement (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to ultimately cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

Regarding 2 Timothy 1:7, when it says that God hasn't given Christians the spirit of fear, the original Greek word (deilia, G1167) means "timidity", and the context means that Christians aren't to be timid before men (Proverbs 28:1) out of some shame about the gospel (2 Timothy 1:8a) or out of some fear of suffering affliction from men for preaching the gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6).

So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God hasn't given Christians the spirit of the fear of men (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28a). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Philippians 2:12b, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 10:26-31, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 2:17, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

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And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is only possible so long as they continue to abide in Jesus Christ; on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, it should be pointed out that Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster; he won't ever give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it's not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (cf. Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus to show them what particular work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

Lee52 said:

This forum is for Christian Advice, not for Christians to bicker amongst ourselves.

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Hopefully we can avoid any bickering, and focus instead on a calm discussion of Biblical doctrine which any "New Christians" (or old) reading this forum can benefit from.

New Christians will not benefit from your many words. You eisegete Scripture and use LOTS of words, saying the same thing over and over again in rephrased sentences and multiple Scriptural references that seem to indicate what you say as truth. Yet, there are no Christian denominations that I am aware of that teach your version of salvation in Christ and initial and ultimate salvation. Your conversation is much better suited among those of us that have been saved by grace for several years and are graduates of evangelical, fundamental, Christian colleges and universities. You came into this forum thread for new Christians with meat and potatoes discussions instead of milk and honey.

If I were so inclined, in a different forum on theological discussions, I would engage you on what you are saying here, one at a time, individually, to keep the discussion simple. As I said above, you are too verbose for a "new Christian" thread and much to complex in what and how you present it. New Christians are not equiped to understand and you know it.

(WDGL) said:

'Ello! First of all, it's great being back here after such a long time. Anyway, Question time! As a newer Christian, I have not been baptized in water yet. I wonder, if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

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Yes, you are. The water soes not save you. Being baptized merely confirms outwardly that you have accepted God's offer of salvation.

Being baptized in most of the mainstream denominations merely enables the person to say that he/she has been accepted into the fold of the membership. But it does not confer membership on the one being baptized. That can only be done after catechetical classes have been taken, so that the person has a solid base of belief as his impetus for becoming a member of that particualr church, rather than mere emotionalism.

In some of the more evangelical churches baptism in and of itself enables the person to attain full membership, with the right to vote at church meetings and accept duties as one of the officers of the church. Some churches accept this baptism as merely the outward sign of having accepted salvation, but they still confer full membership on all who go through it, without any further classes or studying.

But there are also churches in the evangelical area which insist that baptism must be fulfilled or else the salvation is null and void, and it must be baptism by immersion. I have had experience with these churches, and so can say that they are using baptism as 'bait'. Once they talk you into letting them 'dunk' you the list comes out. I call it 'salvation on a stick' due to their teaching that there is always something else that must be done, or, and this is more frequent, an agenda that must be adhered to evermore strictly and taught as more important even than the gospel.

We are saved because God in his infinite mercy has made it possible for us to obtain his righteousness (Romans 3:19 to 5:10). But this is attained through one way only, namely, by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour, including accepting that his sacrifice was indeed sufficient for the cleansing of our sins, and that God did indeed raise him from the dead as a testament to the success of his mission. Beware of those who say that you must also do this, that, or the other in order to earn your salvation. They aren't trying to enlighten you; they're trying to ensnare you. If they can succeed in having you accept their description of God as a harsh taskmaster who must be continually appeased, then they are one step closer to convincing you that you need them instead of Scripture to tell you what you should think, say, and do.

Lee52 said:

New Christians will not benefit from your many words. You eisegete Scripture and use LOTS of words, saying the same thing over and over again in rephrased sentences and multiple Scriptural references that seem to indicate what you say as truth. Yet, there are no Christian denominations that I am aware of that teach your version of salvation in Christ and initial and ultimate salvation. Your conversation is much better suited among those of us that have been saved by grace for several years and are graduates of evangelical, fundamental, Christian colleges and universities. You came into this forum thread for new Christians with meat and potatoes discussions instead of milk and honey.

If I were so inclined, in a different forum on theological discussions, I would engage you on what you are saying here, one at a time, individually, to keep the discussion simple. As I said above, you are too verbose for a "new Christian" thread and much to complex in what and how you present it. New Christians are not equiped to understand and you know it.

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I agree with Lee, in-depth discussions on subjects such as these are meant for debate boards like "Christian Scriptures" or "Soteriology" (under GT). It's not appropriate here.

I'll jump over to one of them, probably Soteriology, and get something started. I would be particularly interested in hearing more about what you mean by "initial" -v- "ultimate" salvation Bible2.

--David

OK, I started a couple of new threads on "GT's", Soteriology board, one about baptism, and one about INITIAL -v- ULTIMATE salvation. If you like to discuss them further, just click on the link above and scroll down.

--David