Back to Revelation 18...

[woobadooba]

This is a discussion that I tried to commence in another thread. However, the exchange of thoughts that took place weren't very civil. So I requested to close the thread.

I'm starting it up again in hope that it will prove to be fruitful.

The idea is that I don't believe Revelation 18 is merely referring to a false church, but to an actual world-power--the United States of America.

The Roman Empire was the most powerful force in all the world when Peter referred to it as the Babylon of its time. Some even declared Rome to be "all the world" because of this. Hence, it was likened to the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar's time.

Things have changed since then. Now the United States is the most powerful force in all the world. So it is fitting that it would be referred to as the Babylon of today, since it too, fosters the same concepts and prowess as the Babylon which was before it.

Hence, the same worldly philosophy which governed the Chaldeans, is also the one which ruled over the Romans; and this worldly philosophy is now showing its ugly face in greater strength than ever before in the United States.

With that said, it is important to note that Revelation 18 speaks of the fall of the *city* of Babylon, not the complete elimination of the philosophy which governs it.

So it is safe to say in my opinion, that the United States is the city of Babylon which is described in Rev. 18. Therefore, before the philosophy itself is eliminated, it appears that the United States is going to suffer a mighty blow from God. At that point, the city of Babylon will fall. But the philosophy (root of the problem) will not be effaced from existence until a later time.

In other words, I don't believe that all the world will receive the same plagues that the United States will receive as spoken of in Rev. 18:4.

For, if this were the case, then the merchants referred to therein wouldn't be mourning over the loss of the city of Babylon, but would be mourning over the loss and devastation of their own cities (countries). For, it appears that though they have suffered a loss as a result of what had happened to Babylon, they seem to be in a better position. Of course, only God knows how long that will last.

Note: I ask that people be civil, and open-minded about this matter. There is no need to create an unfriendly environment here.

 

[woobadooba]

This is an idea that Tall73 shared about this:

alright, a couple of thoughts, and I hope this doesn't re-start the argument, but might re-start the discussion.


a. it is a city. If we are to interpret it as something other than a city we need to explain why. Now having said that Babylon was the capitol of an empire, as was Rome.

b. The question comes down to whether you take an end time futurism approach or an historicist approach. If you take an historicist approach then the power of Rome certainly was a merchant power. If you look at a futurism approach then the US fits better.

C. Slaves were one of the commodities. Yes it was in their terms. But Rome had an extremely high population of slaves, especially in the capitol city.

D. It is an interesting point that onthedl makes regarding the vision of Daniel 2. The power of Rome is seen as still operating at the end time.

E. We already have both powers talked about in chapter 13 in the traditional view.

F. There the prostitute AND her daughters. It is not a question of just one entity in the bigger picture.

G. Here is the biggest point to me. The theme of a harlot in Scripture is well developed in the OT. God's people were often called a harlot when unfaithful, due to spiritual adultery.

We see a faithful woman in chapt. 12 representing God's people. And now we see a prostitute in chapter 18. The contrast seems to be of a faithful and unfaithful group that was once following God.

This also fits with the remnant theme seen more than once in the book. The remnant are the children of the woman in chapter 12. The harlot also has her children in chapter 18.

The faithful remnant always existed in times of apostacy when the rest of the people had become unfaithful.

So I would lean toward it being a religious entity of some type.

 

[woobadooba]

I'm not denying that there's a religious/philosophical aspect to it. What I'm saying is that the nature of this prophecy makes it very clear that this is more than a religious entity. It's an actual world-power which is governed by a philosophy of lawlessness/moral relativism.

It is evident to me that the only world-power that fits this description is the United States. Right now this country of ours is promoting the views of moral relativism in a way like never before, while claiming to be founded on Christian tenets. Hence, it is Babylon (confusion).

Furthermore, the harlot that is spoken of in Revelation represents a philosophy of lawlessness operating under the guise of a religio-political power. And she will not be taken out of the way until that great day when God takes sin in its totality, and effaces it from existence. Yet, according to Rev. 18, the city of Babylon will suffer plagues before this happens.

These plagues are very real. Therefore, if what is spoken of in Rev. 18 is merely a religious entity/concept, how could it suffer real plagues?

I just want to add that you don't have to espouse the Futurist view of Revelation to believe that chapter 18 is referring to the U.S. You can still be a Historicist and believe this.

For those who don't know: The Futurist believes that everything from chapter 4 on is referring to things that are yet future (meaning they all have to do with end time events), whereas the Historicist believes that certain ones of these things described in these chapters already happened, and those that didn't happen would gradually unfold from John's time up until the second coming of Christ.

 

[Adventtruth]

I'm not denying that there's a religious/philosophical aspect to it. What I'm saying is that the nature of this prophecy makes it very clear that this is more than a religious entity. It's an actual world-power which is governed by a philosophy of lawlessness/moral relativism.

You are correct my friend some what. Why limit it to the good old USA? While the USA is the world leader, Babylon is the whole physical world power and those who follow and all who partake of the SORCERIES of Satan through the Catholic influence of worship.

Rev 18:23 ... for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Adventtruth

 

[woobadooba]

You are correct my friend some what. Why limit it to the good old USA? While the USA is the world leader, Babylon is the whole physical world power and those who follow and all who partake of the SORCERIES of Satan through the Catholic influence of worship.

Rev 18:23 ... for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Adventtruth

It is very clear that chapter 18 is describing a literal place. It isn't speaking of this place as though it were the world, but of it in the sense that it is the most powerful and influential place in the world. The rest of the world has been benefiting from this place to some degree, but the city of Babylon in chapter 18 is not the world.

If it were, what sense would there be in merchants from foreign lands mourning over its loss, as if to imply that they are in a better position than the city of Babylon?

"And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:" (Rev 18:11 KJV)

 

[Adventtruth]

It is very clear that chapter 18 is describing a literal place. It isn't speaking of this place as though it were the world, but of it in the sense that it is the most powerful and influential place in the world. The rest of the world has been benefiting from this place to some degree, but the city of Babylon in chapter 18 is not the world.

If it were, what sense would there be in merchants from foreign lands mourning over its loss, as if to imply that they are in a better position than the city of Babylon?

"And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:" (Rev 18:11 KJV)

Babylon is a spiritual influence of Satan who has a Spiritual strong hold that puts a spell on those who are decieved by her...the great men of the earth are all under this spiritual strong hold. Earth is only the physical element that this spiritual force or place (babylon) dwells. What lives in this spiritual place or spiritual babylon??? Devils and unclean spirits and unclean and heatful birds. (Rev 18:2) And every nation on earth has commited spiritual fonication with spiritual babylon and the merchants have also enjoyed this spiritual fonication with spiritual babylon.(Rev 18:3)

Now...back to my point about "sorceries" as mentioned in verse 23,

Sorceries...Divination by the assistance, or supposed assistance, of evil spirits, or the power of commanding evil spirits; magic; necromancy; witchcraft; enchantment. (Webster Dictionary)





It is clear that this place you speak of is the way in which the world operates...the whole world is under a spell. It is the deceptions of Satan or the "black magic" that he has placed on those who are willing to except the ways of the world. Worldiness is the spiritual babylon along with false worship. It has two parts...humanism and spiritualism. Both are the glory of man, not God.

Every time I see a kid with his britches hangind off of his behind, I think of worldliness...everytime I see kids into this hip-hop rap music I see worldliness, the sports crave I see worldliness, fancy pricy cars and homes, worldliness ...I think you get my point. Worldliness is the black magic or sorceries of Satan...It is Satan who has blinded the minds of the lost (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Yes my friend, spiritual babylon is really confusion and blindness to the truths of God, and is a real place...a place of false worship,deception, and sorceries that is manifested on a physical place called earth through priest, preachers, the kings and merchants of earth. The USA is only the leader in this worldliness. Rome the leader in tis spiritualism. Both are now being manifested in the physical church body.

By looking to Babylon of the Old Testament we can see it reprersents false worship and bondage. Today it represents the same thing, only those who are players in the worlds system and those who are in bondage to the spiritual systems of Satan and his sorceries have no clue of their condition or place of dwellings. That is why God calls those who are free from the slave master "sin"(Rom 6) who have been reconciled and have a message of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:18) have a calling to preach to the "captives" (Luke 4:18) the gospel message of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It is our duty to tell those who are in spiritual babylon, and those who are under Satans sorceries the message of repentence, salvation, and restoration through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[OntheDL]

I actually agree with much what you have said. Another way for us to look at it is that the bible is a tale of two cities: Jerusalem and Babylon. As Jerusalem is spiritual in the endtime, Babylon is also spiritual in the end.

 

[woobadooba]

I actually agree with much what you have said. Another way for us to look at it is that the bible is a tale of two cities: Jerusalem and Babylon. As Jerusalem is spiritual in the endtime, Babylon is also spiritual in the end.

I definitely see a spiritual aspect to it, as well as a philosophical thrust. There is no question about that. However, I also see a physical aspect to it. I don't see that the world is the city of Babylon as spoken of in chapter 18, although it is influenced by her to a large degree.

However, I do see that just as there was a real Babylon for the Chaldeans, and Rome (not the whole world) was likened to Babylon, there is also a likeness to the real Babylon today; and I see that the only place that fits the description of this likeness to Babylon is the United States of America.

So far, no one has proven to me that I should think otherwise. And until someone does, I will continue to believe this.

 

[Adventtruth]

So far, no one has proven to me that I should think otherwise. And until someone does, I will continue to believe this.

What you have stated and what I have stated is no different than is what is taught in the Adventist church. You and I bring no new light on this subject.

Adventtruth

 

[Tishri1]

Hi All, look my first Mod Hat in here, We cleaned up all the personal comments(disputes ) out of this thread and are now in business again,...We request that in the future any personal comments(disputes) can be taken to PMs, that would be sooooo helpful, thanks everyone

PS To clarify what I mean by personal disputes, I dont mean debate, that is healthy and fine and good... I mean the comments made about each other that are personal not having to do with the thread or the OP

Shalom and ((((Big Hugs)))) from Tish

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

So far it seems no one here has brought up the conjunction of Babylon and the Beast that is figured in Revelation 17-18. The Harlot is not alone. She sits astride the Beast signifying that as its Rider, She directs its course.

As I understand it, Babylon is associated with a spiritual power because She is the antithesis of the "pure woman" figured in Revelation 12. The "pure woman" (woman clothed with the sun, etc.) of Rev. 12 is representative of the church or more to the point the corpus of true believers in God down through the centuries. Throughout scripture Zion, the people of Israel, etc. are symbolized by a woman, conceivably a "bride of God" as it were. His bride = His people as one corporate body. When Israel sins it is frequently referred to as "playing the harlot" and/or "fornicating with other gods" thus carrying the sexual metaphor over from the figure of WOMAN to the application in a given spiritual corpus.

A beast, on the other hand, is a traditional apocalyptic-prophetic symbol for a nation or political power. In the book of Daniel, world empires are figured in a dream as a successive series of great beasts. The Beast figure in Revelation refers to a political corpus, that is, a political body or power upon the earth, usually a nation, particularly a nation who plays a major role in the economic distribution and management of resources globally.

No mistake about it: the United States is "in there" all right -- it is in there as the brute Beast on which the scarlet Queen rides with Her golden cup of distilled lies manufactured from the wrath of Her fornication in the face of Heaven. Babylon steers the mighty Beastly ship of State with Her own agenda and, if we are to believe the prophecies, the tacit agreement of a vast number of those who fancy themselves "God's people."

Those simple facts, divorced from any more specific or direct components or their applications, suffice to provide a swift overview sketch of the arrangement: a religious power riding on the back of the State and steering it where She would have it to go to fulfill her agenda. Anyone who cannot see this structure emerging in the United States here and now is either blind or stubbornly refusing to look.

By the time this heinous amalgamation of church and state spreads its tentacles worldwide, we won't be fussing over bogus divisions of "left" and "right" anymore. We'll be scrambling to be found standing on the right side of the greatest -- and bloodiest -- battle of human history: a veritable GLOBAL CIVIL WAR with The (True) People of God versus EveryFlippingBody Else who is just living like everyflippin body lives -- save with a biochip implant going around and a mandate to slaughter all dissenters who won't pop the needle and obtain one.

Just my tuppence. Hope it was enlightening and edifying ... and if not, at least some decent afternoon entertainment, eh?

 

[woobadooba]

So far it seems no one here has brought up the conjunction of Babylon and the Beast that is figured in Revelation 17-18. The Harlot is not alone. She sits astride the Beast signifying that as its Rider, She directs its course.

As I understand it, Babylon is associated with a spiritual power because She is the antithesis of the "pure woman" figured in Revelation 12. The "pure woman" (woman clothed with the sun, etc.) of Rev. 12 is representative of the church or more to the point the corpus of true believers in God down through the centuries. Throughout scripture Zion, the people of Israel, etc. are symbolized by a woman, conceivably a "bride of God" as it were. His bride = His people as one corporate body. When Israel sins it is frequently referred to as "playing the harlot" and/or "fornicating with other gods" thus carrying the sexual metaphor over from the figure of WOMAN to the application in a given spiritual corpus.

A beast, on the other hand, is a traditional apocalyptic-prophetic symbol for a nation or political power. In the book of Daniel, world empires are figured in a dream as a successive series of great beasts. The Beast figure in Revelation refers to a political corpus, that is, a political body or power upon the earth, usually a nation, particularly a nation who plays a major role in the economic distribution and management of resources globally.

No mistake about it: the United States is "in there" all right -- it is in there as the brute Beast on which the scarlet Queen rides with Her golden cup of distilled lies manufactured from the wrath of Her fornication in the face of Heaven. Babylon steers the mighty Beastly ship of State with Her own agenda and, if we are to believe the prophecies, the tacit agreement of a vast number of those who fancy themselves "God's people."

Those simple facts, divorced from any more specific or direct components or their applications, suffice to provide a swift overview sketch of the arrangement: a religious power riding on the back of the State and steering it where She would have it to go to fulfill her agenda. Anyone who cannot see this structure emerging in the United States here and now is either blind or stubbornly refusing to look.

By the time this heinous amalgamation of church and state spreads its tentacles worldwide, we won't be fussing over bogus divisions of "left" and "right" anymore. We'll be scrambling to be found standing on the right side of the greatest -- and bloodiest -- battle of human history: a veritable GLOBAL CIVIL WAR with The (True) People of God versus EveryFlippingBody Else who is just living like everyflippin body lives -- save with a biochip implant going around and a mandate to slaughter all dissenters who won't pop the needle and obtain one.

Just my tuppence. Hope it was enlightening and edifying ... and if not, at least some decent afternoon entertainment, eh?

Well said.

By the way, welcome back to the SDA forum

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

are you SDA woob or do you just like to hang out here? just curious.

 

[woobadooba]

are you SDA woob or do you just like to hang out here? just curious.

Yes, I'm sda. The reason why I don't make a blatant notation of this is because when I did I noticed that many CF members were less likely to take anything that I have to say seriously due to their bias against SDAs.

It seemed that they always brought up issues that had nothing to do with the topic of the thread, but everything to do with SDA bashing. I got tired of it after a while.

You will also notice that I don't give any information out about myself in my profile, not even my gender. That's because other people were using that information against me in a negative way.

So I will just leave it to others to figure out what I am. The important thing is that I know who I am in Christ

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Mostly no one on here has made my SDA icon an issue. I don't even think they even notice it, truth to tell. Of course I probably don't really "qualify" as an SDA anyway as I'm more "lapsed" than anything else. I haven't been to church in ages and I don't really keep sabbath or follow the rules and stuff or anything. It's just when I was a devout Xtian that's the flavor I was, so it's hard for me to imagine ever identifying as anything else -- insofar as a flavor of Xtianity is concerned, y'know?

If anything what some ppl seem to have an issue with is my occult background and the fact that I still experience ... things....(*ahem*) ... and I can't just "snap out of it" on command ... y'know? But there are some very nice ppl on here too who PM me and encourage me and tell me nice things like how much God loves me and they are praying for me to get free.

BUT I probably shouldn't be talking about all this here on the forum. How fitting, on a thread about Babylon too ... :o

BTW I got your PM earlier. Tried to write back but ... can't right now .... just ... can't...... you know how that goes. When I can, I will.

 

[woobadooba]

BTW I got your PM earlier. Tried to write back but ... can't right now .... just ... can't...... you know how that goes. When I can, I will.

That's okay. If ever you need someone to PM about these things I'm here.

 

[Sophia7]

If anything what some ppl seem to have an issue with is my occult background and the fact that I still experience ... things....(*ahem*) ... and I can't just "snap out of it" on command ... y'know? But there are some very nice ppl on here too who PM me and encourage me and tell me nice things like how much God loves me and they are praying for me to get free.

Praying for you, also.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

thank you Sophia7

 

[Jimlarmore]

Moriah,
Just know that Jesus loves you like no one every has in your life. He died for you and will not give you up unless you make the decision to completely turn your back on Him. Even though we have never met you are my sister and I will pray for you:

Holy Creator, Almighty God, everlasting Healer, I lift up my sister Moriah before your throne. Holy One, you know all things and you know this woman's heart. Lord I pray that what ever is plagueing her right now will be rebuked and taken away. Wrap your loving arms around her Lord and let Her know and feel how much you love her. Let Your light shine upon her heart and lift her up high and away from the darkness of this world. Give her Your peace Holy One and bless her life in all she does. I pray this in the Name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen

God bless you

Jim Larmore

 

[Sophia7]

Moriah,
Just know that Jesus loves you like no one every has in your life. He died for you and will not give you up unless you make the decision to completely turn your back on Him. Even though we have never met you are my sister and I will pray for you:

Holy Creator, Almighty God, everlasting Healer, I lift up my sister Moriah before your throne. Holy One, you know all things and you know this woman's heart. Lord I pray that what ever is plagueing her right now will be rebuked and taken away. Wrap your loving arms around her Lord and let Her know and feel how much you love her. Let Your light shine upon her heart and lift her up high and away from the darkness of this world. Give her Your peace Holy One and bless her life in all she does. I pray this in the Name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen

God bless you

Jim Larmore