Babylon

JacobTheBlacksmith · Sep 29, 2012

Id like to create a Thread based on the theory Or prediction that The End times Babylon is America. That it not only fits the perfect qualifications to be End time Babylon but that it is for a proof.
God refers to Babylon the Great as a NATION, as a national entity, a recognized nation among the nations of the world. Babylon is also a LARGE NATION, with huge land masses, and is surrounded by SEAS. This fact is often refuted by Bible scholars, who declare that Babylon is ONLY A SYSTEM, and NOT a nation or a literal city. In so doing, they fulfill the prophecies concerning the shepherds of Babylon who lead their people totally astray.
"Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon,

sit on the ground:

THERE IS NO THRONE,

O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called

tender and delicate

(Isaiah 47:1)."

The phase "there is no throne" is telling of America's wealth and might, of her power among the nations of the world. In Revelation 18:7, she says: "I SIT A QUEEN". The word "throne" is "kicce", which means literally SEAT OF HONOR, or "seat of a king". As we journey through the prophecies of Jeremiah, Isaiah and Habakkuk, and then compare them to Revelation, we find a consistent portrait of a MIGHTY END TIME SINGULAR NATION THAT IS THE GREATEST IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.
There are several more quotations with scholarly outlooks on how it all fits in to be America, but I want people to Argue (constructively) and help us all get a better idea of everyone's opinion is, what can they use to back it up type deal. Thanks hope this sparks some good readers!

mog144 · Sep 30, 2012

JacobTheBlacksmith said:
Id like to create a Thread based on the theory Or prediction that The End times Babylon is America. That it not only fits the perfect qualifications to be End time Babylon but that it is for a proof.
God refers to Babylon the Great as a NATION, as a national entity, a recognized nation among the nations of the world. Babylon is also a LARGE NATION, with huge land masses, and is surrounded by SEAS. This fact is often refuted by Bible scholars, who declare that Babylon is ONLY A SYSTEM, and NOT a nation or a literal city. In so doing, they fulfill the prophecies concerning the shepherds of Babylon who lead their people totally astray.
"Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon,

sit on the ground:

THERE IS NO THRONE,

O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called

tender and delicate

(Isaiah 47:1)."

The phase "there is no throne" is telling of America's wealth and might, of her power among the nations of the world. In Revelation 18:7, she says: "I SIT A QUEEN". The word "throne" is "kicce", which means literally SEAT OF HONOR, or "seat of a king". As we journey through the prophecies of Jeremiah, Isaiah and Habakkuk, and then compare them to Revelation, we find a consistent portrait of a MIGHTY END TIME SINGULAR NATION THAT IS THE GREATEST IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.
There are several more quotations with scholarly outlooks on how it all fits in to be America, but I want people to Argue (constructively) and help us all get a better idea of everyone's opinion is, what can they use to back it up type deal. Thanks hope this sparks some good readers!

Welcome Jacob, you may not find many people here to agree with you based on the fact that this is their country that you speak about. I concur with you but this topic will probably raise the atmospheric temp a bit.

If you care to read what others are saying about this general theology then you may read in another closely related forum http://www.christianforums.com/f489/

Some things that are true about America may not be acceptable here so be careful. If you care to discuss anything about America you may send me a private message and we can share info that might not go well here in public.

I have a ton of info that is not popular with most so I don't post it, mostly for the fear of lawful persecutions by the U.S. gov. We may end up behind bars, beaten and tortured and without any rights to a trial. God help us.

ebedmelech · Sep 30, 2012

JacobTheBlacksmith said:
Id like to create a Thread based on the theory Or prediction that The End times Babylon is America. That it not only fits the perfect qualifications to be End time Babylon but that it is for a proof.
God refers to Babylon the Great as a NATION, as a national entity, a recognized nation among the nations of the world. Babylon is also a LARGE NATION, with huge land masses, and is surrounded by SEAS. This fact is often refuted by Bible scholars, who declare that Babylon is ONLY A SYSTEM, and NOT a nation or a literal city. In so doing, they fulfill the prophecies concerning the shepherds of Babylon who lead their people totally astray.
"Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon,

sit on the ground:

THERE IS NO THRONE,

O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called

tender and delicate

(Isaiah 47:1)."

The phase "there is no throne" is telling of America's wealth and might, of her power among the nations of the world. In Revelation 18:7, she says: "I SIT A QUEEN". The word "throne" is "kicce", which means literally SEAT OF HONOR, or "seat of a king". As we journey through the prophecies of Jeremiah, Isaiah and Habakkuk, and then compare them to Revelation, we find a consistent portrait of a MIGHTY END TIME SINGULAR NATION THAT IS THE GREATEST IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.
There are several more quotations with scholarly outlooks on how it all fits in to be America, but I want people to Argue (constructively) and help us all get a better idea of everyone's opinion is, what can they use to back it up type deal. Thanks hope this sparks some good readers!

It would be my conclusion that America is going the route of Babylon.

However, the Babylon of Revelation came and went. I do not see any future application of Revelation except the coming of Christ.

America is not mentioned because America doesn't matter. Christ is reigning with His saints and that's what matters.

JacobTheBlacksmith · Sep 30, 2012

Id like to discuss this topic with you, and i know its a very touchy subject to even the most devout christians. Most people would concur that the Time of Babylon has already happened, but i disagree. Some would say that it has been Rome, but with what i have read about Rome doesn't Qualify to be the Nation of Babylon. It was in fact a great Empire and city, but with the examples i have researched it was not the center for world trade, nor did the empire ever come close to taking over the world. And its bothersome to me that people are mislead into believing that the revelation already happened because it would just walk into the prophesy where it states that many people would become lost sheep because of the false shepherds and prophets who mislead them into believing that the Revelation has already been fulfilled, which it has not. No where in history has there ever been a nation so young and become so powerful within a span of 200+ years. America is the melting pot in which all people are welcome. And Lucifer is to rise up from this place convert the whole nation to one religion (Christianity) and use the name of Christ to lead his war on the world, or those who fight against him.
and i cant send pm's until i reach 15 posts :O

mog144 · Sep 30, 2012

JacobTheBlacksmith said:
Id like to discuss this topic with you, and i know its a very touchy subject to even the most devout christians. Most people would concur that the Time of Babylon has already happened, but i disagree. Some would say that it has been Rome, but with what i have read about Rome doesn't Qualify to be the Nation of Babylon. It was in fact a great Empire and city, but with the examples i have researched it was not the center for world trade, nor did the empire ever come close to taking over the world. And its bothersome to me that people are mislead into believing that the revelation already happened because it would just walk into the prophesy where it states that many people would become lost sheep because of the false shepherds and prophets who mislead them into believing that the Revelation has already been fulfilled, which it has not. No where in history has there ever been a nation so young and become so powerful within a span of 200+ years. America is the melting pot in which all people are welcome. And Lucifer is to rise up from this place convert the whole nation to one religion (Christianity) and use the name of Christ to lead his war on the world, or those who fight against him.
and i cant send pm's until i reach 15 posts :O

Gotcha! Well said my friend! In the same sense of prophetic times as you describe, I see the False Prophet coming up along with a Antichrist who point their fingers back in time to continue the past prophecies as still current today, this is to confuse the nations.

I see how satan is plucking out everything about the Second Advent so to blind us from the coming Messiah. The coming Messiah will be falsly identified as the Antichrist while the authentic Antichrist is spiritually standing in God's place and sitting on God's spiritual Throne in Power. The whole world will wonder after the Beast.

By blinding us from the truth of the Second coming, satan has the world standing in the past, looking over the invisible gap of missing time that was stolen from our prophetic timeline, causing us to actually look far ahead to the end of the 1000 yr reign, confusing the very end with old prophecies. It's as if satan caused the bridge of time to collapse and then he draws the lands together (uniting Church with State), closing the gap and making it all appear as one streamlined prophetic table. The serpent is more subtle than any person on earth.

I have already identified each character precisely, with dates, historical records as evidence along with natural phenomenon that has prophetic place in the timeline of Daniel and Revelation.

I have enough info to write many books but time is short and won't allow. The Prophecies will and are coming to pass. All things will happen in the appointed times, just as Daniel prophesied. Bless you Jacob, you seemed to have picked the correct name as I consider myself as the same of the House of Jacob.

ebedmelech · Oct 1, 2012

JacobTheBlacksmith said:
Id like to discuss this topic with you, and i know its a very touchy subject to even the most devout christians. Most people would concur that the Time of Babylon has already happened, but i disagree. Some would say that it has been Rome, but with what i have read about Rome doesn't Qualify to be the Nation of Babylon. It was in fact a great Empire and city, but with the examples i have researched it was not the center for world trade, nor did the empire ever come close to taking over the world. And its bothersome to me that people are mislead into believing that the revelation already happened because it would just walk into the prophesy where it states that many people would become lost sheep because of the false shepherds and prophets who mislead them into believing that the Revelation has already been fulfilled, which it has not. No where in history has there ever been a nation so young and become so powerful within a span of 200+ years. America is the melting pot in which all people are welcome. And Lucifer is to rise up from this place convert the whole nation to one religion (Christianity) and use the name of Christ to lead his war on the world, or those who fight against him.
and i cant send pm's until i reach 15 posts :O

This is my take:

Rev 17:5, 6 say it like this:
5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

This is none other than Israel/Jerusalem herself...she is the woman riding the beast (which is the Rome).

This is OT language that identifies Israel/Jerusalem...some passages to consider;

These are all Isaiah passages:
*1:21:
21 How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.

Isaiah opens in chap 1 introducing "the harlot". Isaiah calls Israel/Jerusalem a harlot all throughout his prophecy:

*23:16-18:
16 Take your harp, walk about the city, O forgotten harlot; Pluck the strings skillfully, sing many songs, That you may be remembered.
17 It will come about at the end of seventy years that the Lord will visit Tyre. Then she will go back to her harlot’s wages and will play the harlot with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth.
18 Her gain and her harlot’s wages will be set apart to the Lord; it will not be stored up or hoarded, but her gain will become sufficient food and choice attire for those who dwell in the presence of the Lord.

These are all Jeremiah passages calling Jerusalem a harlot:

*2:20
20 “For long ago I broke your yoke And tore off your bonds; But you said, ‘I will not serve!’ For on every high hill And under every green tree You have lain down as a harlot.

*3:1-3
God says, “If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me,” declares the Lord.
2 “Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them Like an Arab in the desert, And you have polluted a land With your harlotry and with your wickedness.
3 “Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no spring rain. Yet you had a harlot’s forehead; You refused to be ashamed.

*3:6-9
6 Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.
7 I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also. 9 Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. (This is all through Jeremiah)

*Ezekiel (especially chapt 16)

*Hosea

It's all through the prophets the harlot is Israel/Jerusalem...and for that reason the harlot is about to be destroyed by Rome.

There's this idea this is future stuff...some have been calling the Roman Catholic Church the harlot, but make no mistake...the harlot riding the beast is Israel/Jerusalem, and The Lord came in judgement on Jerusalem in 70A.D.

The "seven kings" of Rev 17 are the seven emperors (Caesars) of that time. Five kings had fallen already...those were the Julius, Augustus, Tiberias, Caligula, and Claudius. The "one that is", is Nero (Nero reigned until 68 A.D).
Nero was the antichrist (666). The one that is "yet to come and must reign for a little while" was Galba, he lasted 7 months.

I don't believe the antichrist or the beast to be future, and America is not the harlot of Revelation.

PM me anytime

psalms 91 · Oct 1, 2012

ebedmelech said:
It would be my conclusion that America is going the route of Babylon.

However, the Babylon of Revelation came and went. I do not see any future application of Revelation except the coming of Christ.

America is not mentioned because America doesn't matter. Christ is reigning with His saints and that's what matters.

As with all scripture it is multi faceted and I do believe it is America as I also believe that Egypt or the world in Ezekiel is also America

ebedmelech · Oct 1, 2012

psalms 91 said:
As with all scripture it is multi faceted and I do believe it is America as I also believe that Egypt or the world in Ezekiel is also America

The reason Idon't conclude that is the unmistakeable naming of Israel/Jerusalem in those prophecies. This was them throughout history and they finally rejected Christ. This is why Christ said:

Matthew 23:37-39:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

It was Israel/Jerusalem that killed their prophets. Jesus even said so in one of his "8 woes" against the scribes/Pharisees of Matt 23:
Matthew 23:31-33:
31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

To each his own understanding, but I conclude America is nothing in prophecy. However we know from the scriptures what we see happening to America is her "reaping what she sowed" an irrefutable principle of God.

mog144 · Oct 1, 2012

psalms 91 said:
As with all scripture it is multi faceted and I do believe it is America as I also believe that Egypt or the world in Ezekiel is also America

Amen!

psalms 91 · Oct 1, 2012

ebedmelech said:
The reason Idon't conclude that is the unmistakeable naming of Israel/Jerusalem in those prophecies. This was them throughout history and they finally rejected Christ. This is why Christ said:

Matthew 23:37-39:
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

It was Israel/Jerusalem that killed their prophets. Jesus even said so in one of his "8 woes" against the scribes/Pharisees of Matt 23:
Matthew 23:31-33:
31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

To each his own understanding, but I conclude America is nothing in prophecy. However we know from the scriptures what we see happening to America is her "sowing what she reaps" an irrefutable principle of God.

As long as you understand that Jerusalem will never be destroyed totally in the physical. That is where God put His name and it will exist in the millenial as we know that all the nations will be required to go up to Jerusalem once a year

ebedmelech · Oct 1, 2012

psalms 91 said:
As long as you understand that Jerusalem will never be destroyed totally in the physical. That is where God put His name and it will exist in the millenial as we know that all the nations will be required to go up to Jerusalem once a year

No. I don't understand that.
This would be a passage I have to looked at breifly in study. This goes totally against what Jesus did in abolishing feast days, sabbath days, etc. They will not be restored. While I have more study to do I have found this much to compare:

Compare Zech 14:16-19 with Revelation 20:1-3
Zech 14:16-19:
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Rev 20:1-3
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

This is where I would start because the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) speaks of Israel dwelling with God. The Rev passage says "the tabernacle of God is among men".

Those similarities are striking, and so that's something to study. I will soon have to study this further.

I realize you believe Zech 14 to be literal...but I don't...but that's ok...we're both in the family of God.

You have rekindled my interest in the Zech 14 passage. Thanks.

psalms 91 · Oct 1, 2012

ebedmelech said:
No. I don't understand that.
This would be a passage I have to looked at breifly in study. This goes totally against what Jesus did in abolishing feast days, sabbath days, etc. They will not be restored. While I have more study to do I have found this much to compare:

Compare Zech 14:16-19 with Revelation 20:1-3
Zech 14:16-19:
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Rev 20:1-3
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

This is where I would start because the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) speaks of Israel dwelling with God. The Rev passage says "the tabernacle of God is among men".

Those similarities are striking, and so that's something to study. I will soon have to study this further.

I realize you believe Zech 14 to be literal...but I don't...but that's ok...we're both in the family of God.

You have rekindled my interest in the Zech 14 passage. Thanks.

Funny, the feasts at least three of them are stated to be kept forever and we can see that the feast of tabrinacles will be celebrated in the millenial as evidenced by the requirement to go up to Jerusalem once a year.

mog144 · Oct 1, 2012

psalms 91, maybe you posted these and I overlooked it but just in case I'll present another passage about the new Kingdom. Bless you...

Isa 66:22-24

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV

ebedmelech · Oct 1, 2012

psalms 91 said:
Funny, the feasts at least three of them are stated to be kept forever and we can see that the feast of tabrinacles will be celebrated in the millenial as evidenced by the requirement to go up to Jerusalem once a year.

Well the millennial reign is right now. Christ has been reigning since the Great Commission:
Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

I will say there will not be any feast celebrations because they have all been fulfilled in Christ.

They are kept forever in Christ. How do you keep a feast you never had to keep in the first place?

I just don't think so. This is kind of following this line of thinking that a Temple will be rebuilt too...it won't.

mog144 · Oct 1, 2012

ebedmelech said:
Well the millennial reign is right now. Christ has been reigning since the Great Commission:
Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

I will say there will not be any feast celebrations because they have all been fulfilled in Christ.

They are kept forever in Christ. How do you keep a feast you never had to keep in the first place?

I just don't think so. This is kind of following this line of thinking that a Temple will be rebuilt too...it won't.

Have the saints been reigning with Him this whole time that you specify or can you show where they are during the reign?

Anybody can keep the Feast of Tabernacles if they turn to God and repent, it's rather a no-brainer.

ebedmelech · Oct 1, 2012

mog144 said:
Have the saints been reigning with Him this whole time that you specify or can you show where they are during the reign?

Anybody can keep the Feast of Tabernacles if they turn to God and repent, it's rather a no-brainer.

Indeed we reign with Him now:

1 Cor 15:25-28 tells us Christ is reigning right now:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Rev 5:9, 10 states:
9 And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Don't you know we are the Kindgom of God on earth? We reign with Christ right now.

1 Peter 2:9, 10 also makes the case:
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

psalms 91 · Oct 2, 2012

ebedmelech said:
Well the millennial reign is right now. Christ has been reigning since the Great Commission:
Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

I will say there will not be any feast celebrations because they have all been fulfilled in Christ.

They are kept forever in Christ. How do you keep a feast you never had to keep in the first place?

I just don't think so. This is kind of following this line of thinking that a Temple will be rebuilt too...it won't.

Funny, I dont see anyone living to a thousand years and I dont see Christ ruling and reigning on the earth with biblical rules so therefore I do not think it is the millenial for the world.

psalms 91 · Oct 2, 2012

mog144 said:
Have the saints been reigning with Him this whole time that you specify or can you show where they are during the reign?

Anybody can keep the Feast of Tabernacles if they turn to God and repent, it's rather a no-brainer.

Exactly we are grafted in and are Jews by adoption I do see that in the bible but I dont see where it says just go and do your own thing instead of what God has ordained.

ebedmelech · Oct 2, 2012

psalms 91 said:
Funny, I dont see anyone living to a thousand years and I dont see Christ ruling and reigning on the earth with biblical rules so therefore I do not think it is the millenial for the world.

That would be because you see the passage literally.

1000 is a number of completeness or fulfillment, and eternity that God uses in the scripture. Like is used here in these Psalms for instance:

Psalm 50:8-10:
10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
Gods way of saying He owns everything.

Psalm 90:4:
For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.
Eternity.

Psalm 105:8
He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
Eternity again.

Those are a few examples. The millennial reign speaks to Christ reigning with His saints until the last day when His salvation ends and He puts all things under His feet. Christ will then deliver the kingdom to God and eternity begins.

The 144,000 in Revelation speaks of every believer of the "Israel of God". If you notice in Revelation 7 after the 144,000 are listed John turns to see this in Revelation 7:9:
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;"

That is what the 144,000 represents, all believers throughout the history of the earth.

psalms 91 · Oct 2, 2012

ebedmelech said:
That would be because you see the passage literally.

1000 is a number of completeness or fulfillment, and eternity that God uses in the scripture. Like is used here in these Psalms for instance:

Psalm 50:8-10:
10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
Gods way of saying He owns everything.

Psalm 90:4:
For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.
Eternity.

Psalm 105:8
He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
Eternity again.

Those are a few examples. The millennial reign speaks to Christ reigning with His saints until the last day when His salvation ends and He puts all things under His feet. Christ will then deliver the kingdom to God and eternity begins.

The 144,000 in Revelation speaks of every believer of the "Israel of God". If you notice in Revelation 7 after the 144,000 are listed John turns to see this in Revelation 7:9:
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;"

That is what the 144,000 represents, all believers throughout the history of the earth.

Spiritually we are in the millenial if we are in Christ rather than just Christ in us but physically we have not yet seen it, if we are there then when did the judgement seat of Christ take place? Sorry but scripture does not back up a physical mnanifestation of the millenial.

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