Wretched: What Happens to Babies Who Die? - YouTube
Could I get some Reformed opinions on this topic? What did Gill or Matthew Henry say?
Could I get some Reformed opinions on this topic? What did Gill or Matthew Henry say?
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Babies who die
- Thread starter CalledOutOne
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I can't post any links yet, but here's a copy and paste from Gill:
As to the punishment of original sin on those who, it may be thought, not to have added to it any actual sin and transgression, as infants, dying in infancy, I shall be silent; at least, say little. Not that I doubt of the right of justice to punish that sin on Adam's descendants, who have not actually sinned after the similitude of his transgression; since corporal death, a part of the punishment threatened, does pass upon them, and they are born with a want of original righteousness, a considerable branch of moral death; but if divine justice proceeds further, and inflicts eternal death, or everlasting punishment on them, I think it must be in a more mild and gentle manner than what is inflicted on those who have also been guilty of actual sins and transgressions; seeing, as there are degrees of punishment respecting them, as they are greater or lesser, #Mt 11:20-24 so there must be a difference of the punishment of original sin, separately considered; and of that attended with numerous actual transgressions. Many unguarded expressions have been dropped, concerning the punishment of such infants, as before mentioned, which are not at all to the credit of truth. Many conjectures have been made, and schemes formed, that are scarcely worth mentioning. Some have fancied that all such infants are lost; which seems to have something in it shocking, especially to parents. And others think they are all saved, through the electing grace of God, the redeeming blood of Christ, and the regeneration of the blessed Spirit; to which I am much rather inclined, than to the former: but think it best to leave it among the secret things that belong to God; who, we may be assured, cannot do an unjust thing, nor do any injury to any of his creatures: and who, as he is just in his nature, he is merciful in Christ.
As to the punishment of original sin on those who, it may be thought, not to have added to it any actual sin and transgression, as infants, dying in infancy, I shall be silent; at least, say little. Not that I doubt of the right of justice to punish that sin on Adam's descendants, who have not actually sinned after the similitude of his transgression; since corporal death, a part of the punishment threatened, does pass upon them, and they are born with a want of original righteousness, a considerable branch of moral death; but if divine justice proceeds further, and inflicts eternal death, or everlasting punishment on them, I think it must be in a more mild and gentle manner than what is inflicted on those who have also been guilty of actual sins and transgressions; seeing, as there are degrees of punishment respecting them, as they are greater or lesser, #Mt 11:20-24 so there must be a difference of the punishment of original sin, separately considered; and of that attended with numerous actual transgressions. Many unguarded expressions have been dropped, concerning the punishment of such infants, as before mentioned, which are not at all to the credit of truth. Many conjectures have been made, and schemes formed, that are scarcely worth mentioning. Some have fancied that all such infants are lost; which seems to have something in it shocking, especially to parents. And others think they are all saved, through the electing grace of God, the redeeming blood of Christ, and the regeneration of the blessed Spirit; to which I am much rather inclined, than to the former: but think it best to leave it among the secret things that belong to God; who, we may be assured, cannot do an unjust thing, nor do any injury to any of his creatures: and who, as he is just in his nature, he is merciful in Christ.
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- Sep 13, 2005
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As one who is in a church where the blessings of God's covenant family are regularly taught, I have confidence that I will see my daughter again. God has given me peace in my heart, though He saw fit to take her from me.
I was in a Reformed Baptist church that would not have taught this, but that is a huge part of why we (and now my parents as well) are happy to be in churches that are more inclusive of and sympathetic to children. Growing up, our church would not consider a child saved until a "credible profession" at age 17. We were stiff-armed, and it was so discouraging.
As to the OP, David had faith that he would see his son again ...
I was in a Reformed Baptist church that would not have taught this, but that is a huge part of why we (and now my parents as well) are happy to be in churches that are more inclusive of and sympathetic to children. Growing up, our church would not consider a child saved until a "credible profession" at age 17. We were stiff-armed, and it was so discouraging.
As to the OP, David had faith that he would see his son again ...
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
The Scriptures simply aren't clear on the subject. David did make the statement that can be construed to mean his dead child was in Heaven but you cannot build a doctrine on it. I understand the Presbyterian view as one of compassion but it simply isn't Biblical. We don't know and that is OK. We do know that God is merciful and loving good and righteous. We can rest in that knowledge and leave the secret things to Him. Deut. 29:29
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Eddie L
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I agree with Twin. There's no point in being dogmatic in any particular direction on this. We just need to trust that whatever God is doing in this area is the right answer.
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To be honest, I have no view on this. I accept that the Bible is silent and that God is just.
IMO, God is just no matter what He does, so I don't care. I thought this would be a fun topic.
IMO, God is just no matter what He does, so I don't care. I thought this would be a fun topic.
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Philonephius
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The Bible isn't clear on the matter. There is a hint in 2 Samuel 12, but it is not a definite answer. That said, I think we find our answer by looking at the example of Christ and how He treated children. We can safely assume (although not actively teach, since the Bible isn't clear on the matter) that all people who die in infancy or childhood are elect.
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Well I think one point we ought to bring up is this: Are children responsible? Do they have excuse?
We know from the story of John the Baptist that babies can have faith, so what can we deduct from this?
We know from the story of John the Baptist that babies can have faith, so what can we deduct from this?
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Eddie L
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The scary side of that assumption, then, is that it turns abortion and infanticide into an act of mercy. I think we can safely assume that God knows what He is doing regarding each infant as a specific case. There is no blanket assumption about all infants that is either biblical or safe. The danger or risk associated with any general assumption is probably why the Bible is silent on the issue.
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Philonephius
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As Christians, we make assumptions all the time about a variety of things based on reason. For me personally, I choose to believe that God saves all infants. This seems most consistent with His character.
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Eddie L
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I think we're always wrong when we force our assumptions or desires on the Creator of the Universe. It's not our role to require compliance of God to our own definition of justice. We don't have the wisdom to do so.
If every dying infant is elect, then praise God, but I'm glad He hasn't told us so. If He did, then someone would have a logical reason to support abortion and the murder of babies. It would be the greatest mercy we could show to them, because it would secure their eternal futures. At the least, it could put our minds at ease regarding abortion, because, well, if they are all in Heaven what do we need to get all worked up about?
If every dying infant is elect, then praise God, but I'm glad He hasn't told us so. If He did, then someone would have a logical reason to support abortion and the murder of babies. It would be the greatest mercy we could show to them, because it would secure their eternal futures. At the least, it could put our minds at ease regarding abortion, because, well, if they are all in Heaven what do we need to get all worked up about?
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Philonephius
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Do you believe, then, that there is a possibility they are sent to Hell? While I respect your reluctance on the matter, I personally don't feel it is a problem to infer something based on what we know of the character of God.
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Philonephius
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athenken
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I don't time at the moment to go into it fully but I would suggest looking up Covenant Succession. This also dovetails into pedobaptism.
I will try to bring more info later.
I will try to bring more info later.
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I'm bothered extremely by the theology in "Covenant Succession". I guess all Baptists have a problem with it.
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