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Exploring Christianity
Babies/children going to hell?
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<blockquote data-quote="Serving Zion" data-source="post: 73347965" data-attributes="member: 387004"><p>Oh, I see. Well, it isn't as though we are discussing how God should judge, rather it is about understanding How God does judge. It sounded earlier like you might have had some insight of a certain weight to contribute in that.</p><p></p><p>I already know that we are looking at this in different ways, that what you have in mind is different from what I have in mind. You seem to see that God is a jailer who expresses His anger through violence at the offender. I rather see Him as one who is holy, whose company can only be enjoyed by those who are of good character. So, those unfit for His presence cannot reside with Him, they end up in some place without Him -- and there is a general collection of those sorts in that place, which is a miserable sort. It is a miserable place, and they are tormented by the despair of it.</p><p></p><p>St John wrote of the second death being a lake of fire .. and we know that the language of scripture uses fire to describe a thing that destroys worthlessness and refines metal. But, I think that going down the path of suggesting a person can come out of hell after this life is specifically contradicted by Luke 16:26.</p><p></p><p>It doesn't say what you think it says though. The translators have changed the words to convey a meaning that the original words would not convey.</p><p></p><p>The consequence of thinking the way that they would have you think, is that you will think Christianity teaches that mankind was sinless before the fall and that it can never be sinless after the fall, because there will always be children who are sinful until such time as they are born again. That teaching says that children bring sin into the world. The only natural conclusion from that, is that in order for the world to be saved from sin, it needs to be destroyed and a new one created. That is actually the devil's doctrine, and they love to get hold of minds and make them start believing that that is God's way. But it isn't God's way. Jesus said "God did not send His son to condemn the world, rather that through Him it might be saved" - God wants to save the world! .. and "The thief comes for nothing other than to steal, kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and life abundantly at that!".</p><p></p><p>.. So, there is this question that they can't yet answer. It doesn't fit with their theology of destruction, and the verse is so inconvenient to them, they ignore it every time!</p><p></p><p>Romans 7:9 "I was alive once apart from Torah but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died".</p><p></p><p>Yes, eternal hell as you see it (as though it is punishment - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without end), little devils with pitchforks, yeah it's injust. Just as I have said though, if the human soul is an eternal thing and the soul cannot be in the presence of God, then it's eternal place is a place of misery as a consequence (ie: not an affliction of wrath, a punishment of vengeance), then it isn't really injust, rather it is tragic. It is simply too late for them to change once the hammer falls (Ecclesiastes 9:6).</p><p></p><p>Yes, I think that means to say that not everyone who sins is in fact sinning against an infinitely holy God! .. maybe this is drawing out the details of the reasoning behind the Revelation 14:11. There are those (the beast, the false prophet, and the ones who take the mark of the beast), they have sinned against the holy God. It seems to set them apart from an athiest who has lived a life of burglary, for instance. Would like to know your thoughts about that.</p><p></p><p>You've made assumptions here that I haven't seen scriptural evidence for .. could you support those where you have said "they were born immortal and it was obvious to them what their rejection of God would mean"?</p><p></p><p>I can do that if you need me to. I would be surprised though, if the truth is that God had not made His case sufficiently to them that they would stand blameless in His sight.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Serving Zion, post: 73347965, member: 387004"] Oh, I see. Well, it isn't as though we are discussing how God should judge, rather it is about understanding How God does judge. It sounded earlier like you might have had some insight of a certain weight to contribute in that. I already know that we are looking at this in different ways, that what you have in mind is different from what I have in mind. You seem to see that God is a jailer who expresses His anger through violence at the offender. I rather see Him as one who is holy, whose company can only be enjoyed by those who are of good character. So, those unfit for His presence cannot reside with Him, they end up in some place without Him -- and there is a general collection of those sorts in that place, which is a miserable sort. It is a miserable place, and they are tormented by the despair of it. St John wrote of the second death being a lake of fire .. and we know that the language of scripture uses fire to describe a thing that destroys worthlessness and refines metal. But, I think that going down the path of suggesting a person can come out of hell after this life is specifically contradicted by Luke 16:26. It doesn't say what you think it says though. The translators have changed the words to convey a meaning that the original words would not convey. The consequence of thinking the way that they would have you think, is that you will think Christianity teaches that mankind was sinless before the fall and that it can never be sinless after the fall, because there will always be children who are sinful until such time as they are born again. That teaching says that children bring sin into the world. The only natural conclusion from that, is that in order for the world to be saved from sin, it needs to be destroyed and a new one created. That is actually the devil's doctrine, and they love to get hold of minds and make them start believing that that is God's way. But it isn't God's way. Jesus said "God did not send His son to condemn the world, rather that through Him it might be saved" - God wants to save the world! .. and "The thief comes for nothing other than to steal, kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and life abundantly at that!". .. So, there is this question that they can't yet answer. It doesn't fit with their theology of destruction, and the verse is so inconvenient to them, they ignore it every time! Romans 7:9 "I was alive once apart from Torah but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died". Yes, eternal hell as you see it (as though it is punishment - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without end), little devils with pitchforks, yeah it's injust. Just as I have said though, if the human soul is an eternal thing and the soul cannot be in the presence of God, then it's eternal place is a place of misery as a consequence (ie: not an affliction of wrath, a punishment of vengeance), then it isn't really injust, rather it is tragic. It is simply too late for them to change once the hammer falls (Ecclesiastes 9:6). Yes, I think that means to say that not everyone who sins is in fact sinning against an infinitely holy God! .. maybe this is drawing out the details of the reasoning behind the Revelation 14:11. There are those (the beast, the false prophet, and the ones who take the mark of the beast), they have sinned against the holy God. It seems to set them apart from an athiest who has lived a life of burglary, for instance. Would like to know your thoughts about that. You've made assumptions here that I haven't seen scriptural evidence for .. could you support those where you have said "they were born immortal and it was obvious to them what their rejection of God would mean"? I can do that if you need me to. I would be surprised though, if the truth is that God had not made His case sufficiently to them that they would stand blameless in His sight. [/QUOTE]
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