Avoiding Hopelessness

DanielRB · Jan 29, 2009

Hi All,

I remember several years ago reading several books by Ravi Zacharias about why he thought atheism was a bad idea. Fundamentally, his conclusion was that atheism led to dispair, and thus was false.

I would argue that atheism doesn't necessarily lead to dispair, but that isn't my main concern. Rather, it is this: do you think that the avoidance of dispair should be a reason to believe in God?

I'm concerned because Ravi Zacharias is looked on my many Christians as some kind of intellectual. However, this argument seems fundamentally anti-intellectal. Truth is Truth, and whether or not we find it comfortable or comforting--or uncomfortable and leading to dispair--is completely irrelevant.

Yet I know Zacharias isn't alone in this view. I've seen many posts on this forum that essentially say "I am a Christian, because it gives me hope." While having hope certainly is nice, desiring to have hope doesn't make the object in which one has the hope necessarily worthy of that expectation.

Or am I missing something?

Daniel

chosenpath · Jan 29, 2009

Truth is truth! From the moment we are born we take a step everyday towards death. We are all going to die and this cannot be avoided even when a person believes in God. Those of us that trust in God learn to embrace despair not avoid it because we are not anxious about the unseen or unknown. There is however a type of despair in needing clarification by proof or hard core evidence. A person may never receive the answers to questions within their lifetime and are left unfulfilled. A belief in God is fulfilling and this is HOPE!!!

If I may suggest, read all of Daniel chapter 10 through 12 this might help.

Daniel 12:8-13
Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]?" And he said, "Go [your way], Daniel, for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. "And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed [is] he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. "But you, go [your way] till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

drich0150 · Jan 29, 2009

do you think that the avoidance of dispair should be a reason to believe in God?

Personally I do not. But, God is many different things to different people. Some wish to see God as their master, others their Father, Some see him as hope, and others still, as a tyrant..

God can be described in many many different ways, each way that he is described is accurate to the person describing him at the time they are making their statement.. For example Look at how you would describe God now, compared to how you would described him when you were 4.. Was your description of God wrong, when you were four? If it was do you think you should be punished for it?

Thankfully the same grace that is there for us when we intentionally sin, is there for us when we mess up, or aren't correctly worshiping God. Jesus tells us if we are ever to hope to enter Heaven we must learn to humble ourselves a children.. In that humility lives a pure and complete form of love. If we can learn to apply this humility to ourselves, and our approach to worship, then we will find God's Grace in all of our foolish attempts to describe, ascribe and worship Him.

Sketcher · Jan 29, 2009

Not that reason alone. But something tells me you're not spelling out the assumptions he's making when he says that, so I can't help but think you're misrepresenting the man.

Golden Maven · Jan 29, 2009

I think the teachings of Jesus Christ are the key to avoiding hopelessness. Not wishful thinking.
You cannot force yourself to believe in God. Your heart doesn't lie.

I wouldn't say that the Atheist worldview necessarily brings about despair. I'm sure some atheist are happy the way they are. What you need to wonder is what notion atheists are rejecting. They say there is no God, yet I'd love to hear what they mean by "God".

Are they saying there is no cosmic daddy sitting on a throne in the clouds, watching our every move and judging us? If that's the case, sure, I'll agree with them.

The God Jesus speaks of is nothing of the sort.

314159 · Jan 30, 2009

DanielRB said:
I would argue that atheism doesn't necessarily lead to dispair, but that isn't my main concern. Rather, it is this: do you think that the avoidance of dispair should be a reason to believe in God?

Absolutely not, and I'm glad to find Christians in agreement with me. This idea reminds me of Pascal's wager, where he essentially argues that you have potentially more to gain as a believer than you do as a non-believer, and then asserts that you should, therefore, be a believer. Of course, we don't choose what to be believe based on which belief will make us most happy, we choose to believe in what is most likely to be true.

Annie2 · Jan 30, 2009

It's true that many people first turn to God only when they get in to despair. (Ehh, I might be one of them...) God is the last straw for the drowning. But nobody can stay in faith by plain autosuggestion - and there's no need for that either, because God makes Himself manifest to everyone who sincerely seeks Him.
Each believer has got personal proof of God, of His existence, and of His power. Although the experience is often impossible to translate into the language of a non-believer. You just KNOW it in your heart, in your mind.
So, whether the original impetus to reach for God was despair -or avoiding it- or something else, is not relevant. The outcome, i.e. faith, is. God has so many ways to approach an individual; or make the person approach Him. Putting him into despair can be one. Eventually it turns out to be a blessing!!

DanielRB · Jan 30, 2009

twistedsketch said:
Not that reason alone. But something tells me you're not spelling out the assumptions he's making when he says that, so I can't help but think you're misrepresenting the man.

Hi twistedsketch,

Fair enough--you don't have to give me the benefit of the doubt. You can go ahead and accuse me of twisting his views for my own agenda. Read his books, then judge for yourself. I'd recommend reading A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism and Can Man Live Without God? to begin with.

Daniel

DanielRB · Jan 30, 2009

I'm glad to see that most posters are in agreement with me, that this variant of Pascal's Wager is worthless, apologetically. Even though I am personally not convinced by other apologetics that depend on trying to prove that, for example, the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact, I think at least that approach is rational. Saying "It would be bad if God doesn't exist, therefore, he does" seems rather irrational.

Daniel

Sketcher · Jan 30, 2009

DanielRB said:
Hi twistedsketch,

Fair enough--you don't have to give me the benefit of the doubt. You can go ahead and accuse me of twisting his views for my own agenda. Read his books, then judge for yourself. I'd recommend reading A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism and Can Man Live Without God? to begin with.

I've been meaning to read his books anyway.

godanswers · Jan 31, 2009

DanielRB said:
I'm glad to see that most posters are in agreement with me, that this variant of Pascal's Wager is worthless, apologetically. Even though I am personally not convinced by other apologetics that depend on trying to prove that, for example, the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact, I think at least that approach is rational. Saying "It would be bad if God doesn't exist, therefore, he does" seems rather irrational.

Daniel

Unfortunately for intellectuals, the majority of people do not experience God's love by going at it "head first". What I mean by that is hopelessness and despair drive a person to seek the Truth with their heart. I sought God with my intellect for ten years before He finally quieted my mind and opened my heart. As you may find out someday, our intelligence can be a handicap when it comes to faith. Not that God won't answer ALL of your questions, He will. But He's only doing that so He can eventually get to your heart.

It remains true that a person must WANT to believe in order to seek and keep on seeking. "Abiding in the vine" takes constant participation from us. Doesn't motivation come from the heart?

But I get what you mean as far as apologetics go. It's a weak argument to simply want to believe. But one can reason themselves into a hole if they want to. There's always an argument until you stop listening to them and just believe.

DrBubbaLove · Jan 31, 2009

Am not sure the point is that Christians believe in God in order to avoid despair. I agree God is our hope, but we are still human and capable of losing hope. I think the more important point is what we do when we start to lose hope and where are hope lies at that moment has a lot to do with whether we fall into despair or not.

DanielRB · Feb 1, 2009

Hi, DrBubbaLove

DrBubbaLove said:
Am not sure the point is that Christians believe in God in order to avoid despair.

My point is not that Christians believe in order to avoid despair (though some might). My point is that it is not a rational reason, if truth is the ultimate goal. Pseudo-intellectuals (and I'm not using this term as an insult, but rather a descriptive term) like Zacharias seem to think that it's a valid rational argument.

I agree God is our hope, but we are still human and capable of losing hope. I think the more important point is what we do when we start to lose hope and where are hope lies at that moment has a lot to do with whether we fall into despair or not.

I think hope is emotionally necessary, but hope should never be used as a rational argument. Maybe what is true gives us hope, maybe it gives us despair...but whether something gives us hope or not is completely irrelevant as to the veracity of a claim.

Daniel

DanielRB · Feb 1, 2009

Hi godanswers

godanswers said:
Unfortunately for intellectuals, the majority of people do not experience God's love by going at it "head first". What I mean by that is hopelessness and despair drive a person to seek the Truth with their heart.

If hopelessness and despair lead one to seek the truth, then I'm fine with it. The question is whether the avoidance of despair should be a valid reason for accepting or rejecting the truth-claims of a system claiming to be the truth. I believe it isn't.

I sought God with my intellect for ten years before He finally quieted my mind and opened my heart. As you may find out someday, our intelligence can be a handicap when it comes to faith.

What I bolded I find to be a scary statement. It's tantamount to admitting that your belief system is not rational, and only until you decide to abandon reason that you can believe. This opens the door to any and every irrational belief system out there.

Not that God won't answer ALL of your questions, He will.

In this life? I have not ran across too many other Christians who claim that we'll receive all of our answers in this life.

But He's only doing that so He can eventually get to your heart.

So be it; I have no problem dedicating myself completely to the truth, whatever that may be.

It remains true that a person must WANT to believe in order to seek and keep on seeking.

I want to believe the truth, regardless of what that might be or regardless of the consequences. I don't want to accept a priori a belief system before getting (or even contrary to) the evidence. That approach pretty much insures that your subjective bias will color your understanding.

"Abiding in the vine" takes constant participation from us. Doesn't motivation come from the heart?

Yes, motivation comes from the heart. My passion is the truth, whatever that may be and whatever that may imply.

But I get what you mean as far as apologetics go. It's a weak argument to simply want to believe. But one can reason themselves into a hole if they want to.

Reason doesn't lead to holes; abandonment of reason leads quite easily to them, however. Reason may conclude that there's not enough data to make a conclusive judgment on the truth-claims of a system; but I think it's far better to say "I simply don't know" then to claim that one has 'the answer' based on something that is not rational.

There's always an argument until you stop listening to them and just believe.

Buy why, then, believe? Just "because"?

Daniel

DrBubbaLove · Feb 1, 2009

DanielRB said:
My point is not that Christians believe in order to avoid despair (though some might). My point is that it is not a rational reason, if truth is the ultimate goal. Pseudo-intellectuals (and I'm not using this term as an insult, but rather a descriptive term) like Zacharias seem to think that it's a valid rational argument.

Hello Daniel,
I agree it is not a rational reason to believe in God, but that is not the point being made when people point out that having a lesser hope often leads to despair. It is a benefit of being a believer, but not a rational reason for believing. Just like fear of God is not a rational reason even though it has wrongly been used at times in an attempt to scare people as motivation for "believing".
I do not think the people making despair comments about atheism are advocating atheist should convert in order to avoid despair. They are simply stating a fact. And that fact can be seen on a less consequential scale than eternal life. If my whole life has been with the hope of say, becoming an astronaut only to find some obscure medical prevention prevents it, then I might tend to fall into despair at that moment. Some people never recover from such falls, other do. And again the Christian can fall as well. Also quite sure atheist that fall into despair can recover as well.
The point there is while we can turn our back on God and fall into despair, He is still there loving us and willing to forgive. We can return to that eternal hope. Where as with other desires it is often possible we reach a point those are no longer attainable for us. That is never true with God.

I think hope is emotionally necessary, but hope should never be used as a rational argument. Maybe what is true gives us hope, maybe it gives us despair...but whether something gives us hope or not is completely irrelevant as to the veracity of a claim.

Daniel

Ok, think I see the point now. They are saying because atheism leads to despair, it is false. You are saying neither is the reverse true; or "Christianity doesn't lead to despair, therefore it is true" is a false statement or at least does not support the claim Christianity is true.

First I would say Christians can despair as mentioned before, but it was not Christianity that led them there. Christians that despair have allowed themselves to fall into it, it was not because of a shortcoming or defect in the path they were on - to God.

However, if it is true that something leads one to despair, then I think it is true that such a thing was a false or wrong path for the individual to be on. How could we say a path that leads to despair is a true path?

Would also say a good case could be made that internal desires and hopes would tend to lead to despair. This is not the same as saying only our eternal hope is a worthy desire. We should say it is the most worthy. There are certainly worthy desires that are not eternal. It is just that lessor desires lead to either what next if achieved (or perhaps even dissatisfaction with the result - not what we envisioned it to be for example) or a realization at some point that it is unachievable for us.

And do not misundersrtand, our view truly recognizes the equality of all of us, atheist and believer in the eyes of God. He died for all us. So it is not a matter of looking at the value of a life. To God we are all precious.

I guess a counter to this argument is one could die at the peak of happiness in this life, not in a state of despair and that could happen regardless of one's beliefs in God. But am not sure what point has been made by saying it is possible any of us could die happy.
It certainly does not address the question of whether the happily departed was on a path that would have led to despair. And from a Christain view of an afterlife, the happily departed atheist is certainly not happy now, but that is not the point either.

DanielRB · Feb 2, 2009

HI, DrBubbaLove

DrBubbaLove said:
Hello Daniel,
I agree it is not a rational reason to believe in God, but that is not the point being made when people point out that having a lesser hope often leads to despair.

It seems to be what Ravi Zacharias is trying to point out. And I really question if atheism leads to despair. If death is final, no conciousness, kaput, then how does that lead to despair? If you're dead an you don't know you're dead, why should that make anyone despair?

It is a benefit of being a believer, but not a rational reason for believing. Just like fear of God is not a rational reason even though it has wrongly been used at times in an attempt to scare people as motivation for "believing".

Actually, I think it is quite rational to fear something at times, and it can lead to rational action. It may not be a "nice" reason to become a Christian (or any other religion), but I do believe it is rational--if you accept the premise, that such a God actually exists.

I do not think the people making despair comments about atheism are advocating atheist should convert in order to avoid despair.

Again, I think Zacharias is trying to make that claim. But read him and see if you agree.

They are simply stating a fact. And that fact can be seen on a less consequential scale than eternal life.

I don't agree that it is a "fact" that atheism leads to despair.

If my whole life has been with the hope of say, becoming an astronaut only to find some obscure medical prevention prevents it, then I might tend to fall into despair at that moment. Some people never recover from such falls, other do. And again the Christian can fall as well. Also quite sure atheist that fall into despair can recover as well.

The point there is while we can turn our back on God and fall into despair, He is still there loving us and willing to forgive.

But "turning our back on God" doesn't always lead to despair. I've heard many atheists feel a powerful sense of liberation.

We can return to that eternal hope. Where as with other desires it is often possible we reach a point those are no longer attainable for us. That is never true with God.

What about from the depths of hell?

Ok, think I see the point now. They are saying because atheism leads to despair, it is false. You are saying neither is the reverse true; or "Christianity doesn't lead to despair, therefore it is true" is a false statement or at least does not support the claim Christianity is true.

First I would say Christians can despair as mentioned before, but it was not Christianity that led them there.

I'm not speaking of temporary "despair", but rather the "despair" that allegedly comes from not believing in an eternal life of bliss.

Christians that despair have allowed themselves to fall into it, it was not because of a shortcoming or defect in the path they were on - to God.

However, if it is true that something leads one to despair, then I think it is true that such a thing was a false or wrong path for the individual to be on. How could we say a path that leads to despair is a true path?

Hypothetically, if there was a God but he was damning everyone to eternity in hell, I could see that lead to despair. But just because it was uncomfortable, I don't see how that would make it untrue.

Would also say a good case could be made that internal desires and hopes would tend to lead to despair. This is not the same as saying only our eternal hope is a worthy desire. We should say it is the most worthy. There are certainly worthy desires that are not eternal. It is just that lessor desires lead to either what next if achieved (or perhaps even dissatisfaction with the result - not what we envisioned it to be for example) or a realization at some point that it is unachievable for us.

And do not misundersrtand, our view truly recognizes the equality of all of us, atheist and believer in the eyes of God. He died for all us. So it is not a matter of looking at the value of a life. To God we are all precious.

I guess a counter to this argument is one could die at the peak of happiness in this life, not in a state of despair and that could happen regardless of one's beliefs in God. But am not sure what point has been made by saying it is possible any of us could die happy.
It certainly does not address the question of whether the happily departed was on a path that would have led to despair. And from a Christain view of an afterlife, the happily departed atheist is certainly not happy now, but that is not the point either.

Yes, and from the atheist's point of view, the happily departed Christian is not happy now, nor even disappointed that he was wrong--he doesn't perceive anything, neither joy nor sorrow. But both the Christian and the atheist views are claims, and the emotional state of the departed (or us now living) are not the question--the only real question is which one (if either one) is actually true?

Daniel

DrBubbaLove · Feb 3, 2009

While I did speculate on an afterlife, and have never read the author in question, I still doubt any of this discussion is properly about despair or the avoidance of it in the afterlife. It is about leading to despair in this life.

The point of my saying it is a fact, is not just true about atheism, but true with any lesser desire than God. If a Christian and atheist both set in their hearts to become the best poker player in the world, I think both will experience despair in that pursuit (and this true even if the WPT is won by either). It has nothing to do with their beliefs, it is the desire that leads to (or not) despair.

And it really does not matter if the desire is achieved or not, the question is where the pursuit of that desire is ultimately going to lead me. And again I think it is worth noting that Christians can experience despair, but it would not be Christianity that led them there.

Avoiding Hopelessness

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