Authority

[deefstes]

Hi all, I thought for my second post (first one being the intro) I'll get right to it with a question on scripture.

Lately, I've been working through the letter to the Romans in my personal Bible study. I never fail to be amazed how, after studying the Bible for upwards of 20 years, I still read passages that hits me for a homerun, regardless of how many times I've read them before.

One such a passage came from Rom 13:1-7 this morning. You know, that whole business of submission to authority as all authority comes from God. Now I've read this passage countless times in the past and never really doubted any of it. Granted, I always thought it was a bit of a tall order but the Bible has a lot of those ("love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" etc. comes to mind). So, it's not easy, it doesn't come naturally but such are God's orders and we will strive to align our lives with that, right?

But then, when reading it this morning, I couldn't help but wonder how this applies to, say, the situation in Zimbabwe. I mean seriously, does Robert Mugabe's authority really come from God?

Rom 13:3 - For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

If that is what God says then I'll believe it but I just wanted to make sure that I'm understanding if that really is what God is saying. Is Mugabe really God's servant who is doing good to his people? Is he an agent of wrath as appointed by God to bring punishment on the wrongdoer? His definition of "wrondoer" just seems so out of whack with what the rest of the world believes to be wrongdoers.

Someone got some insightful thoughts on this?

 

[calluna]

Hi all, I thought for my second post (first one being the intro) I'll get right to it with a question on scripture.

Lately, I've been working through the letter to the Romans in my personal Bible study. I never fail to be amazed how, after studying the Bible for upwards of 20 years, I still read passages that hits me for a homerun, regardless of how many times I've read them before.

One such a passage came from Rom 13:1-7 this morning. You know, that whole business of submission to authority as all authority comes from God. Now I've read this passage countless times in the past and never really doubted any of it. Granted, I always thought it was a bit of a tall order but the Bible has a lot of those ("love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" etc. comes to mind). So, it's not easy, it doesn't come naturally but such are God's orders and we will strive to align our lives with that, right?

But then, when reading it this morning, I couldn't help but wonder how this applies to, say, the situation in Zimbabwe. I mean seriously, does Robert Mugabe's authority really come from God? If that is what God says then I'll believe it but I just wanted to make sure that I'm understanding if that really is what God is saying. Is Mugabe really God's servant who is doing good to his people? Is he an agent of wrath as appointed by God to bring punishment on the wrongdoer? His definition of "wrondoer" just seems so out of whack with what the rest of the world believes to be wrongdoers.

Someone got some insightful thoughts on this?

Surely even in Zimbabwe the rule of law still applies in most cases. Theft, non-political violence etc. are still criminal offences, as well as offences against God. The Christian obeys the law as far as it possible to do so.

 

[dead2self]

I would go in depth here but I just listened to a great sermon dealing with this exact topic which adressed it quite thoroughly. I commend it to you. You can read it or listen to it here:http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1981/303_The_Limits_of_Submission_to_Man/

 

[deefstes]

Surely even in Zimbabwe the rule of law still applies in most cases. Theft, non-political violence etc. are still criminal offences, as well as offences against God. The Christian obeys the law as far as it possible to do so.

Thanks for the responses guys. Calluna, I like your straight forward approach and I fully agree with you. Unfortunately I do think that the matter stretches a little further than merely the rule of law. Robert Mugabe is a dictator and he is raping his country and killing people. I just find it hard to view him as God's agent of wrath as Paul puts it in his letter to the Romans. Having to obey the rule of of law I have no qualms with.

I suppose the same argument (or question rather) could be applied to the likes of Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milošević, Idi Amin and the list goes on. I see you use the term "non-political" violence. Does this mean that you allude to political violence being acceptable? I think that probably touches on my original question but I still need to explore those thoughts a little further.

dead2self, I've had a quick look at the sermon and it looks very interesting indeed. I'll make a point of going through it in detail tonight when I have more time. Thanks.

 

[calluna]

Thanks for the responses guys. Calluna, I like your straight forward approach and I fully agree with you. Unfortunately I do think that the matter stretches a little further than merely the rule of law.

Maybe when we learn to debate, i.e., discuss without using personal pronouns, we can learn more.

 

[deefstes]

Maybe when we learn to debate, i.e., discuss without using personal pronouns, we can learn more.

Huh? I'm sorry but you've lost me here. If you want to debate the matter then I suppose that's fine but I was hoping to get other christians' "insightful thoughts on this". In other words, I was expecting responses riddled with personal pronouns. I'm not sure how that precludes us learning more.

 

[dead2self]

Huh? I'm sorry but you've lost me here. If you want to debate the matter then I suppose that's fine but I was hoping to get other christians' "insightful thoughts on this". In other words, I was expecting responses riddled with personal pronouns. I'm not sure how that precludes us learning more.

I'm with you on this. I cannot make sense of his comment either.

 

[deefstes]

By the way dead2self, I listened through that sermon you posted a link to and it did bring some insights. I found the following statement particularly interesting.

It is right to resist what God has ordained in order to obey what God has commanded.

He lists a number of rulers who were ordained by God (from the Bible and contemporary history) but who did not follow God and acted in opposition to the law of God. Also, he shows examples from the Bible where God-fearing people's disobedience to rulers' law which opposes that of God is rewarded by God.

Perhaps the statement that I found most telling was when he quoted Peter and not Paul, yet Peter's statement was very similar to that of Paul but with a slightly different focus. I'll quote John Piper directly, because I like his paraphrasing of Peter's words. (This comes from 23 minutes into the mp3 up to the 24th minute)

Strive to avoid incurring the wrath of a government by doing wrong but if you incur the wrath of a government because you do right, don't have a bad conscience but glorify God

I love it!

 

[dead2self]

By the way dead2self, I listened through that sermon you posted a link to and it did bring some insights. I found the following statement particularly interesting.


He lists a number of rulers who were ordained by God (from the Bible and contemporary history) but who did not follow God and acted in opposition to the law of God. Also, he shows examples from the Bible where God-fearing people's disobedience to rulers' law which opposes that of God is rewarded by God.

Perhaps the statement that I found most telling was when he quoted Peter and not Paul, yet Peter's statement was very similar to that of Paul but with a slightly different focus. I'll quote John Piper directly, because I like his paraphrasing of Peter's words. (This comes from 23 minutes into the mp3 up to the 24th minute)

I love it!

I'm glad to hear you liked it. I have listened to about 15 years of his stuff (I'm a trucker and can listed to sermons and teaching while I drive) and really like his preaching. And yes, that quote is great stuff.

 

[hatsoff]

Someone got some insightful thoughts on this?

Yes.

Mugabe should be treated as the dictator he is, regardless of whether or not the writings of Paul happen to support such a policy.

 

[dead2self]

Yes.

Mugabe should be treated as the dictator he is, regardless of whether or not the writings of Paul happen to support such a policy.

I agree completely with your assessment of Mugabe but am thankful Paul absolutely does not support his style of governance.