Author of evil.

[Michael26]

The following is a question and it's answer taken from another post. I thought this was interesting and wanted to address something that I don't feel is accurate. Here is the excerpt:

How is God just when He supposedly predestined the fate of some of His image-bearers to eternal torment before they could choose for themselves, before they were created? Did God predestine their fate before He created them?

- You are describing hyper Calvinism, not Calvinism. Your premise that he predestined some to eternal torment before they could choose for themselves, is closer to Arminianism. If we have free will, and God knew who would choose him, then by definition he created them in spite of this knowledge, and therefore for the purpose of eternal torment which would have made God the author of evil and the double predestination you are referring to.

Here is my opinion of the matter and I would love to know what others think. If we have free will and one of us allows ourselves to be overcome with evil then I don't see how God can be considered the author of evil just because he created that person. If I build a statue of Jesus and put it in a town square in China it is inevitably going to be torn down. So am I the author of destruction because my statue got torn down by someone else? God created a world that I consider a beautiful work of art and a well crafted machine that can operate on it's own. We were given the power to reproduce, we aren't all created from Immaculate Conception. We have the power to move our world forward in both positive and negative ways. This doesn't diminish God's greatness because he gives us this power, it is just what makes his creation so incredible. Just because he can do what he wills with his creation doesn't mean he has to. Yes he does intervene in ways under certain circumstances like the flood (which by the way... why would he flood the earth to get rid of people that apparently angered him even though it couldn't have possibly been their fault since they never had the ability to respond to him in the first place? I guess he forgot to elect more people from that time period. ) He even hardened Pharaoh's heart and even the majority of the Jews so the crucifixion could take place. These were temporary conditions to accommodate important events, and by no means implies that it ultimately effected the person's chance at salvation. If anything implies that God is the author of evil it would be the concept of Total inability which basically states that everyone he created is evil! Which by the way, why wouldn't total inability be mentioned in Genesis. I mean if it is a curse resulting from the fall of man shouldn't it have been listed along side physical death (not spiritual death), pain in child bearing, and the frustrations of dealing with thorns and weeds while harvesting? I think the loss of all ability to respond to God is slightly more significant than the three mentioned above. Yet it is not included. Why would that be?

 

[bradfordl]

God created a world that I consider a beautiful work of art and a well crafted machine that can operate on it's own.

D'ya think? So which parts operate 'on their own', and which parts operate on His direction? Some? All? None?

 

[Michael26]

Just as man designs the components of a computer to work together to accomplish task, God designed the world very specifically to perpetuate forward by it's own design. When scientist study the world they can breakdown how everything functions as far as orbits and how they affect seasons ect.. They can see the different components in nature and see how we are able to reproduce and how cells multiply. It is all a miracle from God that he could create such a perfect design that functions so well. Apart from some funny stuff that goes on in the quantum realm it is easy for us to understand how our world is a well crafted machine that only a higher power could put together. He can do whatever he wants with it at any time he pleases. It is his creation. The word machine may sound a little abrasive when making a metaphor to God's creation, but when you think about it isn't that what it is? A very intricately designed machine with several different things working together in harmony? Of course it is his power that allows it to run. Which I think can be related to the mysteries that we find in quantum physics such as dark matter/energy and the unexplained fact that an electron can be in two places at once until someone tries to observe it. So there are functions at the smallest level that we do not fully understand that I believe defies all practical logic and can only be explained as the workings of a higher power, but the greater mechanics, that could not function without these elements, we do understand and can be compared to the workings of an intricate machine. One more thing, simply put either God gives creation at least some ability to operate on its own or he micromanages every little bit of it. If you choose the latter then how do you explain how the world is capable of performing evil deeds? Would he not in fact be the one instigating these evil acts?

 

[bradfordl]

One more thing, simply put either God gives creation at least some ability to operate on its own or he micromanages every little bit of it.

First you posit that the complexity of creation itself proves that a higher intellect created it, then you say that meticulous oversight of it is not necessary?

If you choose the latter then how do you explain how the world is capable of performing evil deeds?

Please define evil. What makes a deed evil? I believe a deed is made evil by the intent behind it. When a man commits an evil deed, it is evil on his part because his intent is in violation of the law of God. When God ordained that very same act to occur, His intentions were not evil, and never are. The scripture concerning Joseph and his brothers' treatment of him explain this clearly. What they intended for evil, God intended for good. All things are working together for the good of His people, and He made all things for Himself. What evil man does is ordained by God for ultimate good.

Would he not in fact be the one instigating these evil acts?

He instigates the act, not the evil. The alternatives are worse, either that He has no foreknowledge of men's evil, and is as surprised by it as we are, which would render Him a rather weak entity, or it is that He does have foreknowledge of it, but does not intervene in it because He has deemed it unworthy of His effort. The first is nonsense, and the second is blasphemy. That would ascribe to God the sin of indifference to the suffering of His creatures. He is by no means indifferent! Every evil deed will receive its just recompense. Either at the cross or in the flames of hell. And all those things are working together for good in the end.

 

[Michael26]

In response to your first two questions, yes I believe God allows his creation some free reign. I do not argue with your example of Joseph and his brothers. I never said that God never intervened, I just don't think he is the cause of every action done by man. Joseph is a situation not unlike Pharaoh or the Jews at the crucifixion. God has a plan for his creation that he moves toward it by certain interventions and by guiding those who will listen. How exactly did God intervene in Joseph's case? Did he in fact prevent his brothers from murdering him by sending the slavers? Which would mean he prevented a greater evil deed by his brothers from happening. I am not sure that he had to really influence them much as far as their hatred towards him, given the circumstances. Regardless of the specifics, I do not disagree that God does intervene. I don't believe any of his interventions affect a person's salvation though. I also would find it hard to believe that God would be the instigator in someone pulling the trigger of a gun to take their own life. Or someone raping a young girl who grows up confused and not trusting of anyone in the world. Do you?

"He instigates the act, not the evil. The alternatives are worse, either that He has no foreknowledge of men's evil, and is as surprised by it as we are, which would render Him a rather weak entity, or it is that He does have foreknowledge of it, but does not intervene in it because He has deemed it unworthy of His effort. The first is nonsense, and the second is blasphemy. That would ascribe to God the sin of indifference to the suffering of His creatures. He is by no means indifferent! Every evil deed will receive its just recompense. Either at the cross or in the flames of hell. And all those things are working together for good in the end."

So are you saying the God has to intervene in every evil act of man? I agree with your last sentence, but I am not sure I understand what you are getting at with the rest of it. Let me elaborate a little on what I believe. Man has free will. All men sin. All men have an invitation from God to be saved. Some answer the call and some don't. Those who answer the call are invited into heaven. Before they can enter heaven they must have their sin washed away. Which is the sin that Jesus takes upon himself at the cross. He died so that those who chose to follow God would be able to to enter Heaven. Those who reject God die with their sin and never enter the gates of heaven. But let's for a moment take a look at another passage from Genesis.
" 5 The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil. 6 So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart. 7 And the Lord said, “I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing—all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them.” 8 But Noah found favor with the Lord." Gen 6: 5 - 8
So you say God creates men with the inability to do respond to him or do good. He absolutely cannot become righteous on his own. He is by nature (by no means of his own doing, mind you) wicked and evil. Unless of course God elects him and gives him his salvation. So why is he sorry for making a creation that apparently is exactly how he planned for it? Why is his heart broken that all these people are wicked? Isn't he supposed to be the one who gives them their salvation? Did he forget to elect enough people from this time period?

 

[Michael26]

One more thing. You said "He instigates the act, not the evil. The alternatives are worse, either that He has no foreknowledge of men's evil, and is as surprised by it as we are, which would render Him a rather weak entity, or it is that He does have foreknowledge of it, but does not intervene in it because He has deemed it unworthy of His effort. The first is nonsense, and the second is blasphemy. That would ascribe to God the sin of indifference to the suffering of His creatures. He is by no means indifferent!" You say it is blasphemy of God allows man to do evil deeds? It's not like he strikes every person down that does an evil act. Eventually they pay for those sin in hell, if of course they don't repent first. But really what's worse and goes against the concept of a loving God. That God allows men to do evil because he gave them the power of choice, but at all times they do in fact have the opportunity to repent. Or that God purposely created men who are wicked (and will in fact commit evil) and will inevitably go to hell. Would that not in fact make God indifferent to the suffering of his creatures? I am saying the he allows temporary suffering on earth that is a result of the man's own foolishness, but that they could turn away from their evil ways and follow him. You are saying that God allows eternal suffering for his creatures by no fault of their own and that he created them to go to hell and there is nothing they can do about it. It just doesn't make any sense from a logical point of view. It is also doesn't vibe with "11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' Ezechiel 33:11 or 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." or 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2: 3-4.

 

[bradfordl]

A couple of questions:

1. Does God know all of the future, every single detail of it?

I say yes. If you disagree, please explain.

2. If He does, then He must know about every single sin that will ever be commited. Is He capable of intervening to stop every single one?

I say yes. If you disagree, please explain.

3. If He is, then by choosing to not intervene, is He not choosing that the act should take place?

I say yes, He is. If you disagree, please explain.

If these things are true, then your whole construct falls apart. You have to find a more coherent explanation, one that acknowledges God's meticulous sovereignty over all things AND man's guilt in sin. It's not as complicated as it may appear, but one thing you'll have to leave behind is the idea that God is like a man, that He exists in any similar space/time continuum to ours. He is entirely different from us. Our father Adam was created in His image, but not as His equal, and that is a vast distinction.

Understanding more and more of the construction of universe, man comes closer and closer to seeing the irrefutable evidence that the whole thing is being held together by a meticulous intellect and unlimited power. It blows the human mind to even comprehend the design of a single grain of salt, with all of its complexity and the opposing forces contained therein, all held together in perfect balance. It might be kinda scary to consider, but the God that created that grain of salt, the table it sits on, the eye that's perusing it, and the immeasurable universe surrounding it all, is imminently capable of meticulously ordaining beforehand every single quiver of motion that that universe experiences, even the little electro-chemical processes you call thought. Just because you aren't capable of all that, don't presume to limit your Creator with similar restraints.

Have you ever heard of Plato's cave? It's not a good idea to think that God needs us to pity Him by invented limitations to justify His use of evil in this creation to make known His glory. He says plainly in His word that He has done so, and it is an arrogance above our station to paint that fact with either rose-colored glasses or the black sin of ascribing wicked intent to God. Find the truth - the whole truth - or accept that there are things not given to us to know. But don't make God out to be less than He is... He is more than any feeble, sin-darkened human mind can comprehend.

 

[heymikey80]

God created a world that I consider a beautiful work of art and a well crafted machine that can operate on it's own.

What's Scripture say about the world operating on its own?

He even hardened Pharaoh's heart and even the majority of the Jews so the crucifixion could take place. These were temporary conditions to accommodate important events, and by no means implies that it ultimately effected the person's chance at salvation.

What's Scripture say about whether this was a temporary condition?

If anything implies that God is the author of evil it would be the concept of Total inability which basically states that everyone he created is evil! Which by the way, why wouldn't total inability be mentioned in Genesis.

Well, God is under no obligation to tell us everything at once.

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin Rom 3:9
​

But what'd God say in Genesis about the thoughts of men?

I mean if it is a curse resulting from the fall of man shouldn't it have been listed along side physical death (not spiritual death), pain in child bearing, and the frustrations of dealing with thorns and weeds while harvesting? I think the loss of all ability to respond to God is slightly more significant than the three mentioned above. Yet it is not included. Why would that be?

It wouldn't be the responsive curse of God, but an attribute of the transgression itself.

 

[UnderHisWings1979]

I think one thing you have to consider in all of this is that God's entire purpose in creation was the sanctification of His elect. All things work toward that end. The other thing you have to consider is only God has all the answers, lol.

 

[Shulamite]

A couple of questions:

1. Does God know all of the future, every single detail of it?

I say yes. If you disagree, please explain.

2. If He does, then He must know about every single sin that will ever be commited. Is He capable of intervening to stop every single one?

I say yes. If you disagree, please explain.

3. If He is, then by choosing to not intervene, is He not choosing that the act should take place?

I say yes, He is. If you disagree, please explain.

If these things are true, then your whole construct falls apart. You have to find a more coherent explanation, one that acknowledges God's meticulous sovereignty over all things AND man's guilt in sin. It's not as complicated as it may appear, but one thing you'll have to leave behind is the idea that God is like a man, that He exists in any similar space/time continuum to ours. He is entirely different from us. Our father Adam was created in His image, but not as His equal, and that is a vast distinction.

Understanding more and more of the construction of universe, man comes closer and closer to seeing the irrefutable evidence that the whole thing is being held together by a meticulous intellect and unlimited power. It blows the human mind to even comprehend the design of a single grain of salt, with all of its complexity and the opposing forces contained therein, all held together in perfect balance. It might be kinda scary to consider, but the God that created that grain of salt, the table it sits on, the eye that's perusing it, and the immeasurable universe surrounding it all, is imminently capable of meticulously ordaining beforehand every single quiver of motion that that universe experiences, even the little electro-chemical processes you call thought. Just because you aren't capable of all that, don't presume to limit your Creator with similar restraints.

Have you ever heard of Plato's cave? It's not a good idea to think that God needs us to pity Him by invented limitations to justify His use of evil in this creation to make known His glory. He says plainly in His word that He has done so, and it is an arrogance above our station to paint that fact with either rose-colored glasses or the black sin of ascribing wicked intent to God. Find the truth - the whole truth - or accept that there are things not given to us to know. But don't make God out to be less than He is... He is more than any feeble, sin-darkened human mind can comprehend.

Amen.....

 

[JM]

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it." Isaiah 45:6-8

You can translate peace and evil anyway you like but ultimately, God....

 

[Christum Crucifixum]

First of all, let's leave the theodicies to the philosophers, shall we? All theodicies tend toward one of two errors, namely, denying an essential attribute of God (usually His omniscience, omnipotence, or omnibenevolence) or denying the nature and reality of evil. Both are mistakes we ought to take care to avoid. There is no better solution than dismissing theodicies altogether.

Secondly, attempting to discern the origins of evil is futile--to put the best construction on things. The greatest minds of the church (far greater than our own) have tried to plumb the depths of this problem, and have returned to the surface with empty hands.

Thirdly, the Scriptures testify to both:
1) God's infinite power, knowledge, and goodness.
and
2) Evil's real and substantial existence (which is opposed to God's will, though He uses evil for His own holy ends).

We ought to let these propositions stand together in conflict (as uncomfortable as that might be for us), seeing that this is what Scripture teaches, and confess in simple faith:

Yes, evil is evil, BUT GOD IS GOD!