Aussie Church Failing?

artofwar · Jul 28, 2004

I am not really sure i am following you, you say that we dont have to chop our hands off or pluck our eyes out if that causes us to sin when it clearly states that in the bible by Jesus himself, but you will say that women cant teach in public ??? that sounds a bit hypocritical dont you think? why one and not the other?

tyr0ne · Jul 28, 2004

I dont see that there is anything wrong with women preaching the word ..someone has to And I have heard alot of women preachers that are better than male ones

tyr0ne · Jul 28, 2004

artofwar said:
I am not really sure i am following you, you say that we dont have to chop our hands off or pluck our eyes out if that causes us to sin when it clearly states that in the bible by Jesus himself, but you will say that women cant teach in public ??? that sounds a bit hypocritical dont you think? why one and not the other?

I dont think its ment in a literal sence to pluck out your eye etc. Jesus was using it as an example thats it would be better to lose an arm than go into hell (He is teaching about how bad hell is :/) If you look at it in a modern sence, their may be areas in your life eg friendships that you have to lose so you can follow God fully for it would be better to lose one friend that lose your relationship with the Lord.

Bevlina · Jul 28, 2004

artofwar said:
I am not really sure i am following you, you say that we dont have to chop our hands off or pluck our eyes out if that causes us to sin when it clearly states that in the bible by Jesus himself, but you will say that women cant teach in public ??? that sounds a bit hypocritical dont you think? why one and not the other?

Well, if the Bible sounds hypocritical there....there's nothing I can do about it art! I'm not saying it...the Bible is.

artofwar · Jul 28, 2004

The Bible doesnt sound hypocritical Bev you words do this is the Strawman fallacy, the Bible is correct in saying what it is saying, but you have to study to find why specific things are being said, is it a principle. is it cultural? you are taking all of the Bible literal and you still havent answered my questions, if you believe that the Bible is literal in all its form do you also believe that we have to cut off our hands or anything else if it causes us to sin? if yes then thats your opinion, if no then why do you not believe that but you believe that women shouldnt teach??? please answer the question at hand

Bevlina · Jul 28, 2004

How many more times do I have to answer the question? I have answered it twice I think!
Jesus was giving an example when He said to cut your hand off and pluck your eye out.
Do you read of any of the original christians cutting their hands off and pulling their eyes out?
But, when it comes to teaching/ preaching women, the Bible is emphatic. Women are to keep their silence in the church.
No way am I going to take the words of men just to satisfy the feminist movement!

artofwar · Jul 28, 2004

its not feminist Bev if you look at why he was saying it it was for a specific church at a specific time but some how you cant see that, oh well we have to agree to disagree i guess

Bevlina · Jul 28, 2004

But why would Paul state it to one church...and as the Bible is the inspired Word of God...and not mean it for the gentile churches everywhere? Stop and think about it art.

artofwar · Jul 28, 2004

but dont you think this is why when the word says that people perish from lack of knowledge , this is why churches are their for people to learn and be teachable

Bevlina · Jul 28, 2004

By women?
The thing is art, women really began preaching and teaching in earnest at a certain time throughout the ages. It was always the men who preached. Not the women.
Yes...people DO perish from lack of knowledge art because they refuse to let the Holy Spirit guide them...and teach them. Instead...they turn to the words of men. (and today..women)
And, it concerns me when people listen to women like Joyce Meyer. Too many women seem to have got it wrong.

artofwar · Jul 28, 2004

what about Kathryn coulman who healed so many people??? how do you know it is the holy spirit that is guiding you? how do you know that women havent preched or teached through out the ages but no one bothered to write about them?

Koey · Jul 28, 2004

artofwar said:
We can deduce that it was only a temporary and local prohibition from the following considerations:

When the verb to permit (epitrepsein) is used in the New Testament, it refers to a specific permission in a specific context (Matthew 8,21; Mark 5,13; John 19,38; Acts 21,39-40; 26,1; 27,3; 28,16; 1 Corinthians 16,7; etc.) Moreover, the use of the indicative tense indicates an immediate context. The correct translation, therefore, is: I am not presently allowing" (Spencer; Hugenberger); I have decided that for the moment women are not to teach or have authority over men (Redekop; see also Payne).

We know for a fact that Paul allowed women to speak prophetically in the assembly (1 Corinthians 11,5). Women functioned in the Church as deaconesses. We know, therefore, that women did speak in the assemblies. 1 Timothy 2,12 is an exception, a later ruling to counteract a specific threat.

The immediate context of the prohibition was the danger of Gnostic teaching that at the time affected mainly women. Enlarging its purpose to including a permanent norm for all time goes beyond the literal sense of the text and the intended scope of the biblical author.

The overall meaning of this verse is, therefore: Until women have learned what they need in order to get a full grasp of the true teaching, they are not to teach or have authority over men. (Redekop)

Thank you for point 1. I really appreciate someone who actually knows how to rightly divide the Word of Truth. An understanding of Greek is an excellent tool. However, point 2 leaves me in a quandary. I agree that the Bible is very clear about women prophesying and praying, but where does it say that is "in public." I can't find it. Maybe I'm missing something. Can you help? You see, prophesying and praying can be in private.

Let me explain. I have heard it said that a woman could prophesy in private to a male elder, who was then responsible to determine if that was to be carried to the church or was merely a private prophecy such as Paul received in several warnings about not going into a certain city.

So, can you give me the proof of what you are saying?

Thank you.

artofwar · Jul 28, 2004

wouldnt the assembly be classified in public? forgive me if i havent answered your question as i am not understanding it properly

Koey · Jul 28, 2004

artofwar said:
wouldnt the assembly be classified in public? forgive me if i havent answered your question as i am not understanding it properly

What verse are you refering to my friend? Sorry for being so dumb, but I must have read over it without catching "the assembly." Thanks.

artofwar · Jul 28, 2004

What about in Romans 16:1 where Paul commends the Roman Church to Phoebe, the minister of the church at Cenchreae? Paul uses the same Greek word to describe Phoebe that he used to describe himself in relation to the church. Some current bibles translate this word as "minister," but early translators refused to consider this possibility. Similarly, in Romans 16:7 Paul describes Junia (female) as a recognized apostle at that time. Again, many early translations shamelessly added an s (Junias) in an attempt to turn her into a male.

1 Timothy does not have the same provenance as Romans. It differs enough in language structure, theological content, and focus as to raise questions about its authorship. Many Biblical scholars do not believe it was written by Paul at all. Some believe it was written 50 to 80 years after his death to try to authoritativly resolve early church disputes. Among the motives attributed to the writer is the motive to reverse the acceptance of women in the ministry by both Jesus and Paul. As you will recall, the first human Jesus asked to witness about his resurrection was a woman. This was extraordinary at the time since women were not considered competent to witness anything.

Bevlina · Jul 29, 2004

I know all of that art. Did a massive study into it.
These "biblical scholars" are the ones who may cause alot of trouble in the futire concerning things written in the Bible.
Already some of the words of Jesus have been taken out of some of the new Bibles.

artofwar · Jul 29, 2004

what new things have been taken out? what bibles? how do you know the scholars are wrong and other people are not?>

artofwar · Jul 29, 2004

When we look at the Pauline passages that at first glance seem to limit women's roles in the church, through the light of all scripture, and with careful translation, the issue is not as cut ' dried as many have been lead to believe.

For example - there are 5 different Greek words that were all translated into one English word "silence". That means 5 different meanings... one of them means to behave appropriatly, as when a parents would say to a child in church "Hush up!". That "Hush up!" is not a command never to speak in church.

It is clear form the answers of some who do not believe it is Biblical for a woman to preach and teach, that it is more about their personal comfort level and experience. Our comfort level or feelinging that somethings are or are not right, is not a very accurate or reliable basis on which to evaluate any spiritual idea. The notion that I am a sinner and should confess my sins doesn't make me comfortable, but my lack of comfort does not lessen the truth of the matter.

Bevlina · Jul 29, 2004

Do I really HAVE to go through this interrogation art?
How do you know the 'bible scholars' are right and other people are not?
Very subtely, verses have been taken out of the NIV which are in the KJV. Mat17:21,
Luke22:21 are to name the two I stumbled across. For that reason, I burned the NIV.

If you are comfortable to listen to preaching/teaching women, do so.

Bevlina · Jul 29, 2004

artofwar said:
what about Kathryn coulman who healed so many people??? how do you know it is the holy spirit that is guiding you? how do you know that women havent preched or teached through out the ages but no one bothered to write about them?

Benny Hinn was a Kathryn Kuhlman fan. I have her life story. I'll say no more.

I believe God's Word to be complete in light of Proverbs words about women, and with what Paul stated.
How do I know the Holy Spirit is guiding me? I don't art. I just trust my Father in heaven!

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