Augustine

[JJB]

Recently, I've heard on more than one occassion the dissing of Augustine because of his background in Greek philosophy. It was also used as a way to dismiss the saved by grace only doctrine -- that this is influenced by Augustine's Greek philosophy background.

Is this a new phenomenon?

 

[reformedfan]

hating double predestination is pretty old, anyone that hates that prolly hates him for that, too; as if he invented it....

 

[Bulldog]

Recently, I've heard on more than one occassion the dissing of Augustine because of his background in Greek philosophy. It was also used as a way to dismiss the saved by grace only doctrine -- that this is influenced by Augustine's Greek philosophy background.

Is this a new phenomenon?

Do you have any specific instances of this?

 

[Defcon]

Most of the stuff along these lines comes from some quotes of Aristotle about how God would have to be and how it fits our theology - mainly God's knowledge of the future. Since these statements are comparable to some Augustine quotes - the hasty generalization is to call Augustine's doctrine "pagan Greek philosphy". Most people who accuse Augustine of such things refuse to admit that Open theism is in line with Zeus in Greek mythology because he didn't know the future and was a reactionary god. In my experience - Open thiests are the one's using this argument. There is a definite double-standard when it comes to Greek influences.

 

[JJB]

Do you have any specific instances of this?

Bulldog,
Yes, one was a radio show -- local to where I live. It's kinda like a mellower Hank Hannegraff (sp?) show where ppl call in with questions. I went to his website and jotted down some of what was said that day.

IT went like this:

Caller: If there is nothing we do to gain salvation, how do you reconcile that with "We can't earn salvation"?

Host: All ppl have faith. It's either in GOd, money, the government or something else. Bible says we can't earn salvation , but we must do things to obtain salvation. John 3 says we obtain life by believing. Faith is the condition for eternal life.

Beggars will put their hands out to obtain money. He was receptive to your gift. Youhave to be receptive to the gospel. You do not earn salvation by being receptive.

The Bible says you have to repent, believe, and be baptized. God graciously offers salvation with conditions. Salvation is not an unconditional gift.

Caller: If God predestines all, how are any at fault for what we do?

Host: Augustine was first a Greek Philosopher. Fatalism was brought into Christianity by Augustine.

That God determines everything is from Muslim's holy book. It is an Islamic doctrine. Many things happen that is not God's will. God does not ordain everything.


http://www.thenarrowpath.com/

Radio date is Monday, Sept 12 (about midway thru the show was this conversation)

 

[JJB]

Thanks Reformedfan and Defcon for your replies. Guess, my ears are just now hearing it when ppl say it.

Interesting enough, this person was saying that fatalism was brought in through Augustine as an Islamic doctrine.

 

[reformedfan]

fatalism is how the ignorant dismiss the belief in the sovereignty of God

 

[Defcon]

Going back and reading that phone call, it reminds me of the obvious problem that people have with the Reformed Doctrine. Sound exegesis of scripture can not refute that it is what the Bible teaches. "Greek philosphy", if it is so blatant against sound biblical teaching, would be easy for the average "Joe" to see. What happens is that since Augustine has some quotes similar to Greek philosphy, then all of the sudden every theologian who believes the Bible teaches the reformed doctrine is under the influence of pagan Greek philosphy.

There are at least 2 logical fallacies with that thinking:
First - it is a hasty generalization to lump all Reformed theologians into one category and say they are influenced by pagan Greek philosphy

Second - it is a red herring for Christians because all non-Scriptural principles in any theology should be proved wrong with Scripture. We don't disprove Joseph Smith's testimony to Mormons by claiming he was influenced by this culture or that teaching. We prove it false by Scripture.

Sola Scriptura!

 

[JJB]

Thanks Defcon!

I am so thankful for SR and the respite that can be found here!

 

[Defcon]

Thanks Defcon!

I am so thankful for SR and the respite that can be found here!

- I am glad for it too!

 

[Received]

It's not a diss. It's just the fact that Augustine's language specialty was the Latin, which means his preferred scripture was the Latin Vulgate; his understanding of Greek was, as one member has aptly called it, rather elementary.

As a Christian, I am interested in the Greek, not the Latin's interpretation of the Greek. Thus, when one quotes Augustine regarding the exegesis of a particular passage, I tend to gloss over; however, when one quotes Augustine's philosophical-theological understanding of a specific concept, I'm all ears. He was an excellent philosopher-theologian; his exegesis was nothing extraordinary.

Presumably, what makes a protestant a protestant is essentially his emphasis on exegesis; what caused the split from Catholicism was much in part with Luther's indignation over people who intentionally falsely interpeted specific scriptural passages. Any philosophy or theology works secondhand to this emphasis on exegesis. Just like the mystics place ultimate emphasis on the phenomenological aspect of man-God relation, protestantism works essentially with scripture as scripture. Anyone who does not start from this point is, presumably, not a protestant.

 

[Jon_]

Discounting Augustine's doctrine because he utilized the philosophical foundations already established before him is ridiculous. You might as well discount the entire New Testament since it's written in Greek!

For instance, take the syllogism, as first posulated by Aristotle:

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.
​

This form is also called modus ponens and is pretty much as basis as a deductive argument gets. Now, according to this whacko radio host, any doctrinal argument that followed this form would be pagan Greek philosophy! If that's true, then you cannot prove that Christ saves!

All who have faith in Christ will be saved.
I have faith in Christ.
Therefore, I will be saved.
​

If the same radio host were to be consistent to his statement, he would have to say that my syllogism above is nothing more than pagan Greek philosophy.

What utter nonsense.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[edie19]

Recently, I've heard on more than one occassion the dissing of Augustine because of his background in Greek philosophy. It was also used as a way to dismiss the saved by grace only doctrine -- that this is influenced by Augustine's Greek philosophy background.

Is this a new phenomenon?

I've not heard this criticism of Augustine. My understanding of him is that he was a highly educated man. It would not have been unusual for men of that time to be familiar with the Greek philosophers. It certainly doesn't take away from his writings on Christianity.

 

[JJB]

I've not heard this criticism of Augustine. My understanding of him is that he was a highly educated man. It would not have been unusual for men of that time to be familiar with the Greek philosophers. It certainly doesn't take away from his writings on Christianity.

That was my first thought, too, edb19. That's why I was wondering if this is a new phenomenon.

 

[Bulldog]

Bulldog,
Yes, one was a radio show -- local to where I live. It's kinda like a mellower Hank Hannegraff (sp?) show where ppl call in with questions. I went to his website and jotted down some of what was said that day.

IT went like this:

Caller: If there is nothing we do to gain salvation, how do you reconcile that with "We can't earn salvation"?

Host: All ppl have faith. It's either in GOd, money, the government or something else. Bible says we can't earn salvation , but we must do things to obtain salvation. John 3 says we obtain life by believing. Faith is the condition for eternal life.

Beggars will put their hands out to obtain money. He was receptive to your gift. Youhave to be receptive to the gospel. You do not earn salvation by being receptive.

The Bible says you have to repent, believe, and be baptized. God graciously offers salvation with conditions. Salvation is not an unconditional gift.

Caller: If God predestines all, how are any at fault for what we do?

Host: Augustine was first a Greek Philosopher. Fatalism was brought into Christianity by Augustine.

That God determines everything is from Muslim's holy book. It is an Islamic doctrine. Many things happen that is not God's will. God does not ordain everything.


http://www.thenarrowpath.com/

Radio date is Monday, Sept 12 (about midway thru the show was this conversation)

Thanks. I asked so because most of the accusations I have seen regarding Augustine and his soteirological views have to do with accusations of Manichaeanism, but that's another subject...