Augustine - The Root of Error

[JM]

I edited it, after posting I re-read it.

 

[Markea]

It's amazing how much of Christendom has swallowed this nonsense.. hook line and sinker.. and many within protestantism are heading back to Rome and wondering why they ever left in the first place..

but Satan's bound and unable to deceive.. lol

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Where the originator of this thread makes a fatal mistake is assuming that Calvinists or myself agree with everything that Augustine agreed with, we do not. However, where Augustine is in agreement with God's Word, we are in agreement.


But let's look at a few off the lists that the author has made in error.

War, in many cases us justified by God. The children of God are given the mandate by God to defend the defenseless and to stand against evil. In order to do that, war is sometimes neccessary, and would be a sin not to.

That is what Scripture and the Church has taught from the beginning.

Firstly, at the time of Augustine, the Roman Catholic Church did not exist.

That point reveals the ignorance of Church history by the author. The Roman Catholic Church did not come into existence until the schism with the eastern churches in the 10th century.

Augustine would ratify the truth, that salvation is only found through the Church Universal(Catholic), because it is the Church Universal(Catholic) which is the agent through whom God works to deliver the Gospel of Reconciliation in Christ to the lost Elect.

 

[JM]

I edited my post, could you edit the quote? It broke the rules and I didn't realize it until I re-read it.

thanks

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I edited my post, could you edit the quote? It broke the rules and I didn't realize it until I re-read it.

thanks

May as well have the thread removed then.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I edited my post, could you edit the quote? It broke the rules and I didn't realize it until I re-read it.

thanks

Quotes have been edited.

 

[Markea]

I can recall reading an article which suggested that Augustine had originally believed in a future millennial kingdom with Christ reigning on earth.. but later changed his thinking and developed the foundation for what would ultimately become amillennialism.. ie, that this is the millennial kingdom..

From what I understand.. a-millennialism has its roots in interpreting the prophetic book of the Revelation (or revealing) of Jesus Christ from a preteristic point of view... especially chapter 20 of course.. where it speaks of reigning with Christ for a thousand years.. When you look closely at Rev 20 you see that there are three things tied together there which can not be separated within the context.

1) The binding of Satan so that he is unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years...

2) The First resurrection..

3) The thousand year reign of Christ..

SO.. amillennialism in its preteristic pov must spiritualize these things in order to claim that they're past..

While I believe that it's a fairly simple matter to refute amillennialism from the scriptures.. I would be interested in hearing whatever tidbits anyone might have concerning these sorts of things... ie, historical background.. literal comments from writings.. etc..

Once a Christian sees the error of amillennialism.. they can begin to see the reality of millennialism, and the literal aspects of Christ coming again and being King over all the earth in that Day..

The Day of Christ..which is as a thousand years..

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Notice how the scriptures speak of the day encompassing both summer and winter..

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Christ is already King and Reigning over His Kingdom, the Church.

Isaiah saw Christ the King, as did Abraham;

John 8:56;

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Dispensationalists miss so much in their narrowminded approach.

 

[Markea]

Christ is already King and Reigning over His Kingdom, the Church.

Isaiah saw Christ the King, as did Abraham;

John 8:56;

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Dispensationalists miss so much in their narrowminded approach.

We see NOT YET all things put under Him... as He is seated on the right hand of the Majesty on high.. WAITING til His enemies be made His footstool.. for He is truly longsuffering..and not willing that any should perish..but that all would come to repentance and to the knowledge of the truth..

He doesn't force Himself on His subjects.. He wins their love and trust and service.. even their own lives..

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

We see NOT YET all things put under Him... as He is seated on the right hand of the Majesty on high.. WAITING til His enemies be made His footstool.. for He is truly longsuffering..and not willing that any should perish..but that all would come to repentance and to the knowledge of the truth..

He doesn't force Himself on His subjects.. He wins their love and trust and service.. even their own lives..

Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Sovereign!

Why do you profane the Sovereignty of Christ?

 

[Markea]

Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Sovereign!

Why do you profane the Sovereignty of Christ?

I don't.. I simply agree with the living and abiding Word of God.. simple as that..

Why do you reject that scriptural fact that we see not yet all things under Him and that He is waiting til His enemies be made His footstool..?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I don't.. I simply agree with the living and abiding Word of God.. simple as that..

Why do you reject that scriptural fact that we see not yet all things under Him and that He is waiting til His enemies be made His footstool..?

Sure you do, you exalt Satan to a position he does not have and you lower the Sovereignty of Christ.

 

[Markea]

Sure you do, you exalt Satan to a position he does not have and you lower the Sovereignty of Christ.

The truth AWC. is that you make the living and abiding Word of God of no effect.. the Word of God which we are to live by.. every word that proceeds from the mouth of God..

So what about those verses.. ? ? You're just going to IGNORE them aren't you.. so be it... that itself speaks more than what you actually have said..

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

The truth AWC. is that you make the living and abiding Word of God of no effect.. the Word of God which we are to live by.. every word that proceeds from the mouth of God..

So what about those verses.. ? ? You're just going to IGNORE them aren't you.. so be it... that itself speaks more than what you actually have said..

I uphold God's Word, but you have to run it through your semipelagian philosophy and discard or pervert the clear passages, posted here many times over, that contradict your philosophy.

You reject God's Truth for the vain, human philosophy of semi-pelagianism.

 

[Markea]

I uphold God's Word, but you have to run it through your semipelagian philosophy and discard or pervert the clear passages, posted here many times over, that contradict your philosophy.

You reject God's Truth for the vain, human philosophy of semi-pelagianism.

You're the one IGNORING the simple passages that I referred to.. and again, that speaks louder than anything else you have said..

How about you explain the verses in Hebrews which speak of Him sitting on the right hand of the Majesty on high.. waiting til His enemies be made His footstool.. or how that we see NOT YET all things put under Him... but that we see Jesus.. those who see through the eye of faith..

Your ignoring these verses is making it perfectly clear..

You also ignore the mystery concerning Israel and so you must be wise in your own conceits..

You also ignore the times of the Gentiles and Jerusalem being trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

The silence speaks volumes..

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Mark, explain how Paul could say that the natural descendants of Abraham are not the children of God in Romans 9.


For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

 

[Markea]

It's that simple.. not all Israel according to the flesh is true Israel... although that doesn't make them the CHURCH OF GOD..

It's the same thing as saying that not all of Christendom is IN CHRIST...

Why.. ? ?

Because not all descendants of the flesh truly trust God and have faith... just as not all professing Christians in Christendom truly possess Christ in them..

The problem is that you're forcing Israel (True Israel even) to be the CHURCH of God..

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No, Mark, you are simply making a false dichotomy that has no warrant in Scripture, nor in the entire history of the Church.

Scripture is plain and clear that there is no distinction.

 

[Markea]

No, Mark, you are simply making a false dichotomy that has no warrant in Scripture, nor in the entire history of the Church.

Scripture is plain and clear that there is no distinction.

To an amillennialist who cannot discern the times perhaps.. but not to me.. scripture is plain and clear that there is a distinction... Romans 11:25-29 alone show that.. it's plain foolishness to suggest that Israel and the church are the same thing in the context of those verses...

Some simply choose to remain ignorant of the mystery, and therefore are wise in their own conceits.. just as Paul said would be the result..