Attempting to understand US RM

[AnthonyB]

I'm from Australia and came to follow Jesus and be baptised at a Church of Christ ( a conference aligned one). This present a small problem because people generally think in US terms on the web, so they presume I'm from the US type Church of Christ. Except for the few RM'ers I've meet who immediately lump me with the Disciples of Christ.

Now I have no problem with instrumental music (but if I thought it would actual re-establish unity then I'd happily give it up), and we do have acapella CoC's in Australia and their defiantely got different ideas to me about a range of things.

As for the Disciples of Christ, (hopefully there are some who post here because I've got some questions that I'd love to ask them.) Of what I've seen on the net they seems some way from my experience and ideas of church. I suppose I would sum it up that they are way more "liberal" then I would feel comfortable with. Liturgies, robes, using "reverend" for pastors, open membership (on baptism) and an openess to non traditional moral standards. (Quite frankly and I hope no one is offended but I was horrified to think I assoicated to a "liberal" denomination.)

As for the ICC/CoC people, I hadn't heard of them until I went searching on the net. From my conversation with them they appear to have two divergent groups, those who hold like CoC, that salvation doesn't occurr until baptism and those with a more mixed evanglelical/restoration view. (I'm working through those issues on another website) At the moment it is with the latter group that I probably feel the most connection with.

I noticed that on the World Convention website, it has all three US groups claiming to have churches in Australia but I've never seen a DoC or a ICC/CoC church in Australia. There is only what we refer to as conference and non conference churches. Does anyone have a good idea of where I would feel most at home if I visited the US?

 

[DerSchweik]

Hi Anthony,

First - welcome to CF and to our RM forum here! Hope you'll stick around and get to know us better.

As you noted, the "diversity" of groups or "sects" even within what we know to be the Restoration Movement is significant. For example, I'm not sure what you mean by "conference" and "non-conference" churches of Christ in Australia. Honestly, anymore I'm just not sure how to answer questions such as yours - my wife and I miss the church (cofC) in which we became Christians and grew for about six years. We've sort of been "on the lookout" for a similar church ever since - similar in doctrine, similar in worship, similar in discipleship, evangelistic outreach, etc. etc. etc.

I've quit "looking," which is not what I'm suggesting to you at all - but I've come to the conclusion that that church we're looking for no longer exists, if only because what made that congregation was the unique sampling of Christians that was the church at that particular time and place in our history.

I love the RM focus for that very reason - to restore New Testatment Christianity in a modern world marked by one thing the NT "church" did not have - choice - and I ask myself periodically, "what exactly IS the NT church?" Is it the Philippian church, the Ephesian church, the Corinthian church, Rome, Thessalonica, Galatia, Colossea - Jerusalem???

It has occurred to me that were I a Christian in any of those cities or regions in the first century, one thing I would NOT find then that we have a profound abundance of now is - choice, choice in which "group" I would attend and "place membership." I seriously doubt for example that there was a "Macedonian Road Philippian church" or a "Golgotha Jerusalam church" or a "Via Appia Roman church."

One thing that I have found uncomfortable, yet a blessing nevertheless is that here on CF we don't really have such "choices" (at least not yet). If a person aligns themself generally with Restoration Movement principles, this is the forum, and this is the only choice there is on CF for "RM-aligned" Christians. And there are similar forums for Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. etc. etc.

Interestingly, there are major discussions (staff level, mostly) with the change to the new CF2 (this site just underwent a major software upgrade in the past few weeks) that there be some new congregational forums. One "group" of Christians that were lumped under one congregational banner are now seeking separate "status" with their own separate forums. It is the same discussion we may have in the RM forum someday about splitting RM into distinct cofC, DofC, and ICC forums. Those discussions are heated, passionate, and pointedly focused on the unique distinctions that characterize the different groups - and for the purpose of separating what was one group - into two.

Personally, I hope that never occurs here, for our unity in Christ is not a function of how we align ourselves within His body. It wasn't in the first century, and in my opinion, it shouldn't be that way now either. Our unity in Christ is a function of what He did for us on the cross, and for His resurrection.

You'll find here in the RM forum some very scholarly people on RM topics - and some not so scholarly (like me ) - but devoted nevertheless to the unique concept that is RM. We can be dogmatic here; we can be "heated" and passionate here; and we can "major in the minors" here (just check some of our threads ). But so far, and likely owing to the fact that our numbers are small, there has been no real call as yet to split. I like that choice - the freedom to agree to disagree with people who are otherwise my brothers and sisters in Christ on topics that aren't that critical in comparison to the key choice we made - becoming Christians in the first place and choosing to serve God rather than something else - on that at least we all agree.

God bless, bro - hope to see more of ya and hope you feel welcome here in the RM forum!

 

[iamjcs]

I'm from Australia and came to follow Jesus and be baptised at a Church of Christ ( a conference aligned one).
...
Does anyone have a good idea of where I would feel most at home if I visited the US?

Though don't know much Church of Christ ( a conference aligned one), I'd say, it depends on where in the US.

For instance if it were Denver, Noth Carolina, then I'd say Saint Peters, which though labeled Episcopal, has people from various denominations + non-denominationals.
-

 

[AnthonyB]

From reading this forum it would appear that the majority here are from US church of Christ churches. (Does anyone know where the DoC's post?)

A short bit of history...the restoration movement occurred in both US and UK. The UK churches used "Church(es) of Christ" and had conferences. Churches appoint delegates to send to a conference (Acts 15:2), decisions of the conference are only as binding on the local church as it wants them to be.

In Australia settlers from the UK brought the restoration movement to Australia and also some local Scotch Baptist congregations moved to adopt restoration values, lastly the US movement interacted with us. From my searching no congregations remained "a capella" for long after the introduction of instruments. Mutual edification held out in some places for some time against having sermons.

We have had a joint bible college with the Baptist for nearly 100 years, although a couple of the more conservative state conferences formed their own more restoration oriented bible colleges.

One of the posters in another thread was complaining of not finding US type CoC in Australia, in terms of numbers conference churches number about 500 churches with 40K of people and a capella have about 81 with about 3K, the acapella churches rely on US evanglelists. Having never had a significant schism, neither on worship styles nor church government (the conferences were setup from 1860 and since Australian looked to the UK in most things it was nearly universal in acceptance) there probably is a greater diversity in Australia then in any of the individual parts of US RM.

 

[bbbbbbb]

May I add my two cents' worth of insight? Think of the RM as a spectrum. At one end you have extreme liberals and wackos such as the infamous Jim Jones from the Disciples of Christ. At the other end you have extreme conservatives and wackos living in a nineteenth century world of traditions. In between you have groups such as the CC, the ICC, and the Disciples with their churches sometimes overlapping others on the spectrum. There is not an enormous amount of uniformity, especially toward the liberal end of the spectrum.

Now, just step aside for a moment and look at a parallel universe, whch might be a bit more understandable from an Australin perspective. This is the universe of the Christian. or Plymouth, Brethren. Very similar history here - early nineteenth century origins starting in Dublin, Ireland with an intense desire to restore the church to its first-century roots. Fast forward to the present. What you have now is a similar spectrum as above. At the liberal end are brethren churches not at all unlike most contemporary churches. At the conservative end are churches which are non-instrumental of which a few have "Bible readings" rather than preaching. Mixed in are a great variety of other beliefs and practices along this spectrum.

 

[AnthonyB]

bbbbbbb,

I can see the spectrum thing, I think Australian CofC probably lies in a spectrum somewhere in the DoC and ICC part of the spectrum. I was hoping to find some Doc's to ask some questions to. (Like how does priesthood of all beleivers work in with pastors wearing robes and being "reverends"? Is it just their wish for unity makes them wish to deliberately look like other Christians) I suppose I was trying to ask which part of the US RM, would someone with mixed evanglelical and restoration veiwpoints most likely find churches which would he would be generally feel at home at.

I actually attend a Christian Brethren chapel about 15 years ago (I had no car and there was no CoC within a reasonable bike riding distance) I was there six months and had just presumed that the no one knew how to play the piano in the corner, until I visited one of elders houses and heard his wife playing the piano brilliantly. Only then did it dawn on me that they were deliberately worshipping a capella during the Lord's Table.