Attack on Israelis in Jerusalem

danny ski · Nov 30, 2014

Zoness said:
So now it seems to be a popularity contest; whichever loses must be violently removed. The last few decades seem to be that contest playing out; who will win? We don't know yet.

In the near future, G-d willing, we will start rebuilding the Temple. How do you think the Palestinian Arabs will react to that? Will they not go berserk? How are we to exist when our destiny and things that we hold sacred are dependent on permission from people who hate us? And who live among us. Since the very first day of the existence of the modern State of Israel, we've been at war. How much longer must the Jews put up with this?

LoAmmi · Nov 30, 2014

danny ski said:
How much longer must the Jews put up with this?

We are called to be a holy nation, Danny. What is asked of us is not easy nor is it something most people would want, but if we're going to do the will of HaShem we must be the ones with high standards and the ones who do what is good. We must not mistreat people, we must not do things that break peace, and we must live to that high standard that Moses brought to us from HaShem.

Can we defend ourselves? Most certainly. In fact, I fully support decisive defense to end threats as soon as they appear. But when Jews enact policies that harm innocents, we need to reevaluate them because we're suppose to protect the innocent.

danny ski · Nov 30, 2014

LoAmmi said:
We are called to be a holy nation, Danny. What is asked of us is not easy nor is it something most people would want, but if we're going to do the will of HaShem we must be the ones with high standards and the ones who do what is good. We must not mistreat people, we must not do things that break peace, and we must live to that high standard that Moses brought to us from HaShem.

Can we defend ourselves? Most certainly. In fact, I fully support decisive defense to end threats as soon as they appear. But when Jews enact policies that harm innocents, we need to reevaluate them because we're suppose to protect the innocent.

If there was a peace to break, I'd agree. Since we have neither peace nor security... The bottom line is this will continue until they destroy us. And as always, the rest of the world will just stand there and watch and accuse us of killing innocent children. They've always done that and it won't be any different this time.

Jane_the_Bane · Nov 30, 2014

I think this is one of the instances where religion turns out to be a truly toxic factor in the socio-political conflict:
The hatred on both sides is at least partially motivated by religious factors, be it in the form of conflict over who gets to claim ownership of specific holy sites, be it in the form of religion being used to dispossess ("this is our land because our myths say GOD gave it to us") or kill ("drive the Jews into the sea") the opposing party.

The best thing that could happen to the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be a trend towards secularization: with highly emotionally charged, yet objectively indefensible arguments from religious belief out of the way, people might actually start to look at these matters without ideological blinders, recognizing each other's humanity and putting an end to the bloodshed.

Jane_the_Bane · Nov 30, 2014

And if you ask me whose "side" I'm on:

I'm on the side of anybody who's threatened with violence and death, who faces persecution and displacement, or whose voices are drowned out by warmongers and fanatics.
I do not care what religion or ethnicity they belong to - and they can be found on both "sides".

danny ski · Nov 30, 2014

Jane_the_Bane said:
I think this is one of the instances where religion turns out to be a truly toxic factor in the socio-political conflict:
The hatred on both sides is at least partially motivated by religious factors, be it in the form of conflict over who gets to claim ownership of specific holy sites, be it in the form of religion being used to dispossess ("this is our land because our myths say GOD gave it to us") or kill ("drive the Jews into the sea") the opposing party.

The best thing that could happen to the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be a trend towards secularization: with highly emotionally charged, yet objectively indefensible arguments from religious belief out of the way, people might actually start to look at these matters without ideological blinders, recognizing each other's humanity and putting an end to the bloodshed.

Not only Israel is a product of the 19th century secular school of thought, it was established by secular socialists(mostly) as a secular state and it remains so to this day, by far. Zionism is NOT a religious movement. Nor is the conflict about religion. Arabs are just as happy to murder secular Jews as the religious ones. Just like they were not deterred by conversion to Islam of the latest American beheaded by the Islamists.

TG123 · Nov 30, 2014

Jane_the_Bane said:
And if you ask me whose "side" I'm on:

I'm on the side of anybody who's threatened with violence and death, who faces persecution and displacement, or whose voices are drowned out by warmongers and fanatics.
I do not care what religion or ethnicity they belong to - and they can be found on both "sides".

I am completely in agreement with you, JaneTheBane.

AskTheFamily · Nov 30, 2014

Jane the Bane is a wonderful person.

prov1810 · Nov 30, 2014

Jane_the_Bane said:
I think this is one of the instances where religion turns out to be a truly toxic factor in the socio-political conflict:
The hatred on both sides is at least partially motivated by religious factors, be it in the form of conflict over who gets to claim ownership of specific holy sites, be it in the form of religion being used to dispossess ("this is our land because our myths say GOD gave it to us") or kill ("drive the Jews into the sea") the opposing party.

The best thing that could happen to the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be a trend towards secularization: with highly emotionally charged, yet objectively indefensible arguments from religious belief out of the way, people might actually start to look at these matters without ideological blinders, recognizing each other's humanity and putting an end to the bloodshed.

Zionism was founded by secular Jews, and their motives would have been enough to establish a Jewish state. Chiefly, the desire to escape the antisemitism they experienced in the diaspora.

AskTheFamily · Nov 30, 2014

If it had nothing to do with religious motive, why did they pick Palestine as the place they want to make a Jewish State? Why not be given land elsewhere, why take it from the Palestinians?

prov1810 · Nov 30, 2014

AskTheFamily said:
If it had nothing to do with religious motive, why did they pick Palestine as the place they want to make a Jewish State? Why not be given land elsewhere, why take it from the Palestinians?

I'm sure there were many philosemitic countries eager to give up land for a Jewish state, but I can't remember any. Neither can you. So they had to establish a state in the place that has been their homeland for over three millennia and in all this time they have lived there continuously because the Crusaders did not manage to kill all of them.

My post was aimed at the anti-religion boilerplate that won't accomplish anything constructive and displays ignorance of relevant history. Maslow's Law of the Instrument: "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."

Yes, religious Zionism is very strong in the Knesset. But secular Zionism and Marxist-utopian Labor Zionism would have been a sufficient cause for the establishment of Israel. And if every Jewish person on Earth became a secular atheist right now, they would not abandon Zionism. Nor would secular Palestinians abandon their nationalist yearnings. Secularism is not the magic pill to solve the conflict in Israel/Palestine.

danny ski · Nov 30, 2014

AskTheFamily said:
If it had nothing to do with religious motive, why did they pick Palestine as the place they want to make a Jewish State? Why not be given land elsewhere, why take it from the Palestinians?

Any suggestions? They chased us all over the civilized world for a couple of thousands of years. It only made sense to try to return to the place of our ancestors who lived there for thousands of years.

AskTheFamily · Nov 30, 2014

danny ski said:
Any suggestions? They chased us all over the civilized world for a couple of thousands of years. It only made sense to try to return to the place of our ancestors who lived there for thousands of years.

The Jews who use to live there mostly converted to Islam. The people who currently lived there were Palestinians. Just because Europeans treated you badly doesn't give you the right to go steal land from other people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

How does it make sense only to return to an area when you been gone for such a long time and the Jews there mostly converted to Islam.

It doesn't make any sense. You have a sense of entitlement, that it belongs to you, and when you read the Torah it gives this impression that Jews are God's favorites so you have this notion that you are entitled. In the Torah lands were taken from other nations by wars.

I have a suggestion, either get Europeans to give you a state as they were the ones who treated you badly or don't make a state.

Anyways, the crime is done now, and it's time to move on.

It's an Apartheid regime right now and that should go away. It should allow Palestinians either to co-exist with Israelis and no longer be an exclusive Jewish state or there should be a reasonable two state solution giving a reasonable amount of land not what has been offered so far by Israel.

LoAmmi · Nov 30, 2014

AskTheFamily said:
The Jews who use to live there mostly converted to Islam.

I believe this to be a statement of dubious accuracy.

prov1810 · Nov 30, 2014

LoAmmi said:
I believe this to be a statement of dubious accuracy.

There were Jewish farmers in Israel who did not want to send their sons away for religious studies. Some of them became Christians, and some of those Christians became Muslims after the Arab conquest. But the point stands that there has been a continuous presence of Judaism-believing Jewish people in Israel for over three millennia. There is an abundance of references to this from conquerors and pilgrims.

LoveBeingAMuslimah · Nov 30, 2014

danny ski said:
I disagree. There's no room for Christians and Muslims in the land of Israel. Maybe as tourists. One thing the last few decades made clear is that there will be no peace as long as we're sharing the land with other peoples.

There was plenty of room for Muslims, Christians, and Jews before the creation of Israel. There was a heck of a lot more peace in that land before the European Jews decided that Palestine was a land without a people and took it and made it theirs (with the help of Christians).

danny ski said:
The foreigner also must respect our laws and religion and way of life. These foreigners will not even acknowledge our existence.

Like the ones from Poland, Germany, and Russia did in the early-mid 1900's?

danny ski said:
Arabs are just as happy to murder secular Jews as the religious ones. Just like they were not deterred by conversion to Islam of the latest American beheaded by the Islamists.

....ISIS is not representative of Arabs or Muslims (or Islaam).

Do you know what religious Muslim Arabs did when they first conquered Palestine? They let the Jews back in (whereas the Christians were persecuting them and exiled them from Jerusalem). If Muslims or Arabs wanted Jews gone so badly, why would they have reversed what the Christians had done?

danny ski · Nov 30, 2014

AskTheFamily said:
The Jews who use to live there mostly converted to Islam. The people who currently lived there were Palestinians. Just because Europeans treated you badly doesn't give you the right to go steal land from other people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

How does it make sense only to return to an area when you been gone for such a long time and the Jews there mostly converted to Islam.

It doesn't make any sense. You have a sense of entitlement, that it belongs to you, and when you read the Torah it gives this impression that Jews are God's favorites so you have this notion that you are entitled. In the Torah lands were taken from other nations by wars.

I have a suggestion, either get Europeans to give you a state as they were the ones who treated you badly or don't make a state.

Anyways, the crime is done now, and it's time to move on.

It's an Apartheid regime right now and that should go away. It should allow Palestinians either to co-exist with Israelis and no longer be an exclusive Jewish state or there should be a reasonable two state solution giving a reasonable amount of land not what has been offered so far by Israel.

There is no evidence that Jews of Judea converted to Islam. None. As for your suggestion of asking Europeans for a state... We don't ask anymore. Who do you think you're talking to, here? A Yid from a shtetl? We'll make a settlement with the Palestinian Arabs. After ISIL burns through the area, we'll give them the whole Jordan. Good riddance.

prov1810 · Nov 30, 2014

I sympathize with the Palestinians. We Americans wouldn't know how to endure one-tenth of what they go through daily. I also sympathize with the need - and the right - of the Jewish people to have their homeland. It's a heartbreaking situation and there are no viable simple answers. I think this means it's going to get uglier.

dcalling · Nov 30, 2014

It doesn't make senses at all. And it is almost impossible, because for some reason almost all nations dislike Jews, I actually heard on a PBS program that during the 1920s in New York, some Jewish girl can't get a job outside of Jewish community, they were disliked like blacks at the time.

However I think it is God who lead the Jews there as promised, that is why this tiny sect of people can survive for thousands of years and still have its own identity. In the Bible God promised Jews their land, and I was surprised to discover even in Quran Muhammad said God give the land to Jews.

It doesn't make sense to us (why choose such a tiny place surrounded by hostile nations?), but if it is from God, it doesn't need to make sense.

AskTheFamily said:
The Jews who use to live there mostly converted to Islam. The people who currently lived there were Palestinians. Just because Europeans treated you badly doesn't give you the right to go steal land from other people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

How does it make sense only to return to an area when you been gone for such a long time and the Jews there mostly converted to Islam.

It doesn't make any sense. You have a sense of entitlement, that it belongs to you, and when you read the Torah it gives this impression that Jews are God's favorites so you have this notion that you are entitled. In the Torah lands were taken from other nations by wars.

I have a suggestion, either get Europeans to give you a state as they were the ones who treated you badly or don't make a state.

Anyways, the crime is done now, and it's time to move on.

It's an Apartheid regime right now and that should go away. It should allow Palestinians either to co-exist with Israelis and no longer be an exclusive Jewish state or there should be a reasonable two state solution giving a reasonable amount of land not what has been offered so far by Israel.

Zoness · Nov 30, 2014

dcalling said:
It doesn't make sense to us (why choose such a tiny place surrounded by hostile nations?), but if it is from God, it doesn't need to make sense.

I never understood this; God picking a favorite people doesn't sound very omniscient to me.

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