Atheist morality.

Ledifni · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
Atheist morality? How can such a thing exist? Wouldn't such a moral code be based completely on someone's OPINION.

Do you mean like the way Christian morality is based on the opinions of the Christian interpreting the Bible?

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

Ledifni said:
Do you mean like the way Christian morality is based on the opinions of the Christian interpreting the Bible?

Nope. I don't mean that way. Did that answer your question?

And for the record, Christian morality is not based upon a Christian's opinions. A Christian's OPINION means about as much as does an atheist's opinion.

z3ro · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
And for the record, Christian morality is not based upon a Christian's opinions. A Christian's OPINION means about as much as does an atheist's opinion.

If that were true, there would be no division in the christian faith about issue like abortion, homosexuality, etc.

Ledifni · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
Nope. I don't mean that way. Did that answer your question?

And for the record, Christian morality is not based upon a Christian's opinions. A Christian's OPINION means about as much as does an atheist's opinion.

For the record, yeah, it kind of is based on the Christian's opinions. I base that conclusion on the fact that every one of you guys has a different idea of what Christian morality is -- and you're going to have a pretty hard time convincing me that you just happen to be the one single correct Christian out of billions.

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

z3ro said:
If that were true, there would be no division in the christian faith about issue like abortion, homosexuality, etc.

There can be as much division in the Christian faith as people want to muster . God has spoken to the act of killing and to the committing of homosexual acts.

Case closed . No Christian OPINION or INTERPRETATION needed.

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

Ledifni said:
For the record, yeah, it kind of is based on the Christian's opinions. I base that conclusion on the fact that every one of you guys has a different idea of what Christian morality is -- and you're going to have a pretty hard time convincing me that you just happen to be the one single correct Christian out of billions.

Then let me correct that upon which you base your conclusion. The opinions of Christians is not the basis of Christian morality. Jesus Christ is. Every Christian can come into agreement about their interpretation of a moral issue, and if it does not mesh with what Jesus Christ has ABSOLUTELY and DEFINITIVELY givenas HIS truth, then they are all wrong and have done nothing more than give you their interpretations.

Jesus Christ is God ALONE. And His standard of righteousness IS NOT dependent upon Christian interpretation.

Ledifni · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
Then let me correct that upon which you base your conclusion. The opinions of Christians is not the basis of Christian morality. Jesus Christ is. Every Christian can come into agreement about their interpretation of a moral issue, and if it does not mesh with what Jesus Christ has ABSOLUTELY and DEFINITIVELY givenas HIS truth, then they are all wrong and have done nothing more than give you their interpretations.

Jesus Christ is God ALONE. And His standard of righteousness IS NOT dependent upon Christian interpretation.

Precisely -- and what Jesus Christ "says" depends on the Christian who is attempting to speak for him. I've never heard Jesus Christ say a single word. I've heard lots of Christians say things that they claim Jesus Christ would say if he were talking to me. But I've never in my life heard a word out of Jesus's own mouth. Nor have I ever met anyone who has.

And don't come back with, "Real Christians talk to Jesus all the time," because yet again, it is merely your opinion that your internal feelings are really the words of Christ and not those of your own subconscious. I've had those feelings too and I see no reason to think that they're divine communcation. The fact that each Christian has his or her own version of what Jesus Christ thinks, based on what Jesus Christ has "told" them, should be enough to demonstrate that internal feelings aren't a good guide.

Illuminatus · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
There can be as much division in the Christian faith as people want to muster . God has spoken to the act of killing and to the committing of homosexual acts.

Thou shalt not kill...unless one finds a homosexual, then they stone them.

Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

Ledifni said:
Precisely -- and what Jesus Christ "says" depends on the Christian who is attempting to speak for him. I've never heard Jesus Christ say a single word. I've heard lots of Christians say things that they claim Jesus Christ would say if he were talking to me. But I've never in my life heard a word out of Jesus's own mouth. Nor have I ever met anyone who has.

What Jesus Christ says does NOT depend on what a Christian says. A Christian can say whatever he wants and that has no effect on what Jesus Christ says.

Jesus Christ is perfectly capable of speaking for Himself and He has spoken with His Word. And NO, that Word is NOT open to interpretation. It is HIS interpretation that matters and His ALONE.

And don't come back with, "Real Christians talk to Jesus all the time," because yet again, it is merely your opinion that your internal feelings are really the words of Christ and not those of your own subconscious.

You're obviously under the wrong impression here. Ain't nobody trying to convince you of anything. You feel free to believe however you choose.

I've had those feelings too and I see no reason to think that they're divine communcation. The fact that each Christian has his or her own version of what Jesus Christ thinks, based on what Jesus Christ has "told" them, should be enough to demonstrate that internal feelings aren't a good guide.

The fact, huh? Now somebody might think that you have interviewed every Christian and come to that silly conclusion.

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

Illuminatus said:
Thou shalt not kill...unless one finds a homosexual, then they stone them.

Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

Gosh, I've told ya'll about taking Psych 101 and thinking that it means anything. Why people, who lack the Holy Spirit as the deliverer of truth and discernment , continue to make comments about what appears to them to be contradictions of God's Word , is rather amusing.

z3ro · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
Jesus Christ is perfectly capable of speaking for Himself and He has spoken with His Word. And NO, that Word is NOT open to interpretation. It is HIS interpretation that matters and His ALONE.

You better get this information out to all the different demoninations, the biblical scholars, the bible study groups, and the phds who spend their time trying to find out what the bible really means.

Illuminatus · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
Why people, who lack the Holy Spirit as the deliverer of truth and discernment , continue to make comments about what appears to them to be contradictions of God's Word , is rather amusing.

It's also just as amusing when people who claim personal supernatural inspiration completely ignore a salient point.

Fledge · Jul 13, 2005

Illuminatus said:
Thou shalt not kill...unless one finds a homosexual, then they stone them.

Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

Not really. The word usually translated "kill" in the OT is probably better translated as "murder". Also, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), the word that Jesus uses is one for "murder".

Also, the context of the OT references to killing homosexuals seems to indicate a civil punishment, and so unless you use an unorthodox interpretation of the word "murder", there isn't really any particular dissonance.

glo · Jul 13, 2005

Stellar Vision said:
So did I to some extent, but that is because we always hear them mentioned contemporaneously. Yet if morality had to be derived from religion, then all non-religious people would apparently be amoral and unable to tell right from wrong. However there does not seem to be any correlation between a person's religious beliefs and their morality or ability to discern right from wrong. So in that respect I think they are separate ideas.

You could always argue C.S. Lewis' point, that human beings are born with a moral compass within them and that human experience only muddles them from the original point- or reinforce it.
We eventually discover morality. It is comparative to the laws of mathematics where one discovers them, and does not make it up.
Lewis argues that God implemented the moral code within us.

~ ~ ~

z3ro said:
zaac said:

And for the record, Christian morality is not based upon a Christian's opinions. A Christian's OPINION means about as much as does an atheist's opinion.

Click to expand...

If that were true, there would be no division in the christian faith about issue like abortion, homosexuality, etc.

I agree here with z3ro.
Though there is an absolute moral code dictated by God to human beings to write down, it's the human beings who twist it all up and God who is cryptic so that there are so many divisions between Christians about different moral issues.

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

z3ro said:
You better get this information out to all the different demoninations, the biblical scholars, the bible study groups, and the phds who spend their time trying to find out what the bible really means.

Yes indeed we better get the word out to them.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.Proverbs 3:5

He says to acknowledge HIM and lean not on your own understanding. If people would do this, the church would look more like Christ and a whole lot less like the rest of the world.

Trying to figure things out ourselves is the very reason all this foolish new age humanism has crept into the church.

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

Illuminatus said:
It's also just as amusing when people who claim personal supernatural inspiration completely ignore a salient point.

Without the Holy Spirit as your Counsel, you lack any salient points. So come with something stronger than freshman psychology.

Illuminatus · Jul 13, 2005

Zaac said:
Without the Holy Spirit as your Counsel, you lack any salient points. So come with something stronger than freshman psychology.

Haven't ever taken a psych class. I love it when people hide behind the Holy Spirit.

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

Illuminatus said:
Haven't ever taken a psych class. I love it when people hide behind the Holy Spirit.

It was a colloquial ya'll and I'm sure that I didn't say anything about YOU having actually taking a psychology class.

I don't hide behind the Holy Spirit. I stand with It.

Zaac · Jul 13, 2005

Illuminatus said:
Haven't ever taken a psych class. I love it when people hide behind the Holy Spirit.

By the way, nice avatar.

ChristianCenturion · Jul 13, 2005

James T said:
I actually view it as the only reasonable kind. After all an atheist has no higher authority to fall back on and so must justify a moral position with reason.

It disturbs me to encounter the application of dogmatic beliefs in morality. People need to actually consider the position based on the facts and the identification of real harm. Real harm does not include the offense sticky-beaks take when poking their nose into affairs where they disapprove.

I do enjoy it when Atheist spin their heads around and stomp up and down that theirs is not a 'belief', but is instead a state of lack of belief - only to later present some kind of false premise that 'they' are united by some sort of cohesion.
No, Atheist may tell themselves that they as a group use reason, but those that do are far and few in meeting. It is also a false premise that all come to correct conclusions regarding morality and since there is no common understood unity in 'lack of belief'; theirs is a state of social relativism.

I have met some Atheists that deserve respect and even Conservative Atheists that are not so arrogant as to declare every position they have as pure gold, but instead can be honest enough to see and build upon the wisdom of those that came before them. It is true however that there are some that are Atheist which do not have the word, but conduct themselves in praiseworthy fashion. They (a very small number) will be a testament against those that claim that they have the word, but do not behave as such.

Atheist morality? In general, a forced pairing at best.

Atheist morality.

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