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<blockquote data-quote="Drosophila1" data-source="post: 40073320"><p>First you say the world is perfect, then it's not perfect because of sin and free will (how?). And then you repeat that the world is utterly beautiful. A rationalization is a justification without evidence.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>But you said a perfect world would remove our free will.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Could we use "morality" as the word, instead of sin? It's a sin to have other gods before yours. It's a sin to work on Sundays, etc. And no, lack of morality does not follow automatically from thinking of oneself first. Least of all in a society. I dare say you're not thinking about this in evolutionary terms.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Or I would rebell for what is right. Because I know what causes pain and suffering in a person and I want to avoid that. And you are in worse shape if God invents morality, and all you're doing is what he tells you. How is that a moral compass? I go by least amount of suffering as my compass.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> No, you're not taking my worldview to its logical conclusion. First of all because you repeatedly show you don't understand it. By that I mean you don't understand how morality works on a behavior based way, you don't comprehend how life can be enjoyed without the promise of eternal bliss, and you think that simply asserting that the universe itself is evidence for a creator. That's your problem. You asked what the deal is, and I told you. Furthermore, even if I felt that everything was pointless, even if I thought there is no reasong to be good... reality is not dependent upon what I think would be nice or comfortable. The truth is not affected by what I would like to be true. I think it would be awesome if santa were real, but that doesn't make it so. One has to come to terms with what one has, and get on from there. And I remind you again, that eve though YOU can't understand my view, doesn't mean it is illogical or wrong.</p><p> </p><p> And yes, your life is important, but only for getting into heaven. I don't think you should take offence so easily when after all, you have basically said I have no reason to live. I don't take it personally, so why are you taking it personally now that I retort with arguments against your view? Or at least the view of many christians. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Time to show a contradiction in your mindset. In the two paragraphs above you first say that your days are infinitely more important to you than mine are to me. Ironically, you use a doorway simile, hehe. </p><p> In the next paragraph you say that decades are nothing compared to infinity. In other words, 80 years are nothing. So how can they be precious to you? 80 years is all I have, unless I get hit by a bus or something, and they are very precious to me. You from your POV have all of eternity to look forward to. That's what I mean by life on earth being a door mat for you to wipe your feet on. If your 80 years are a preparation to get into heaven, then that is basically saying that the 80 years here are meaningless in their joys, pains, etc. It's just the place you go to get a clean record for God.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> So you know the will of God. Wow, I've never been that confident. How do you know God won't say murder is okay? How is it impossible?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> What's your information source that simply killing someone is a-okay in tribes in Ecuador?</p><p> </p><p> Now, now. Abortions like that ONLY happen if the mother's life is at stake. Abortion as legalized is not murder unless scratching your nose is mass genicide. A 3 day old embryo is 150 cells give or take. Sam Harris has eloquently explained why abortion, although an important ethical discussion of course, is not murder from conception. But I think we can both agree to stay away from abortion and focus on general issues instead.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Uhm, no I will point to the victim of the rape. One person THINKING that something doesn't cause suffering isn't what causes it to be a morally okay act. Being a moron would then be the moral goal, right? I'm not either of the opinion that popular vote determins what is moral and what is not. Was slavery okay a hundred years ago? No, it was just as big a moral attrocity then as now. You're putting the cart before the horse here. It is the fact that societies improve that they become more moral, that is, they decrease amount of suffering that the people go through. I can see how you could mix this up, and I agree, popular vote is not a basis of morality. </p><p> </p><p> Neither is a dictator in the sky. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Hm... as opposed to the pride that comes from thinking you're God's special guy whose existence is the reason there is a universe, and that this omnipotent creator loves and cares completely for you? Um, okay.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you promise to read the God Delusion, Letter to a Christian Nation, and Losing Faith in Faith, I promise to read A Shattered Visage. </p><p>My eyes are always open to the possibility of there being gods. All I need is a good reason. You on the other hand, I dare guess, won't for a second be open to the possibility of there not being gods. My allegiances are to myself and those whom I love. If you love christ, the same applies to you. Please be less judgemental, that is after all not your call, according to your book.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's very condascending, you know.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Drosophila1, post: 40073320"] First you say the world is perfect, then it's not perfect because of sin and free will (how?). And then you repeat that the world is utterly beautiful. A rationalization is a justification without evidence. But you said a perfect world would remove our free will. Could we use "morality" as the word, instead of sin? It's a sin to have other gods before yours. It's a sin to work on Sundays, etc. And no, lack of morality does not follow automatically from thinking of oneself first. Least of all in a society. I dare say you're not thinking about this in evolutionary terms. Or I would rebell for what is right. Because I know what causes pain and suffering in a person and I want to avoid that. And you are in worse shape if God invents morality, and all you're doing is what he tells you. How is that a moral compass? I go by least amount of suffering as my compass. No, you're not taking my worldview to its logical conclusion. First of all because you repeatedly show you don't understand it. By that I mean you don't understand how morality works on a behavior based way, you don't comprehend how life can be enjoyed without the promise of eternal bliss, and you think that simply asserting that the universe itself is evidence for a creator. That's your problem. You asked what the deal is, and I told you. Furthermore, even if I felt that everything was pointless, even if I thought there is no reasong to be good... reality is not dependent upon what I think would be nice or comfortable. The truth is not affected by what I would like to be true. I think it would be awesome if santa were real, but that doesn't make it so. One has to come to terms with what one has, and get on from there. And I remind you again, that eve though YOU can't understand my view, doesn't mean it is illogical or wrong. And yes, your life is important, but only for getting into heaven. I don't think you should take offence so easily when after all, you have basically said I have no reason to live. I don't take it personally, so why are you taking it personally now that I retort with arguments against your view? Or at least the view of many christians. Time to show a contradiction in your mindset. In the two paragraphs above you first say that your days are infinitely more important to you than mine are to me. Ironically, you use a doorway simile, hehe. In the next paragraph you say that decades are nothing compared to infinity. In other words, 80 years are nothing. So how can they be precious to you? 80 years is all I have, unless I get hit by a bus or something, and they are very precious to me. You from your POV have all of eternity to look forward to. That's what I mean by life on earth being a door mat for you to wipe your feet on. If your 80 years are a preparation to get into heaven, then that is basically saying that the 80 years here are meaningless in their joys, pains, etc. It's just the place you go to get a clean record for God. So you know the will of God. Wow, I've never been that confident. How do you know God won't say murder is okay? How is it impossible? What's your information source that simply killing someone is a-okay in tribes in Ecuador? Now, now. Abortions like that ONLY happen if the mother's life is at stake. Abortion as legalized is not murder unless scratching your nose is mass genicide. A 3 day old embryo is 150 cells give or take. Sam Harris has eloquently explained why abortion, although an important ethical discussion of course, is not murder from conception. But I think we can both agree to stay away from abortion and focus on general issues instead. Uhm, no I will point to the victim of the rape. One person THINKING that something doesn't cause suffering isn't what causes it to be a morally okay act. Being a moron would then be the moral goal, right? I'm not either of the opinion that popular vote determins what is moral and what is not. Was slavery okay a hundred years ago? No, it was just as big a moral attrocity then as now. You're putting the cart before the horse here. It is the fact that societies improve that they become more moral, that is, they decrease amount of suffering that the people go through. I can see how you could mix this up, and I agree, popular vote is not a basis of morality. Neither is a dictator in the sky. Hm... as opposed to the pride that comes from thinking you're God's special guy whose existence is the reason there is a universe, and that this omnipotent creator loves and cares completely for you? Um, okay. If you promise to read the God Delusion, Letter to a Christian Nation, and Losing Faith in Faith, I promise to read A Shattered Visage. My eyes are always open to the possibility of there being gods. All I need is a good reason. You on the other hand, I dare guess, won't for a second be open to the possibility of there not being gods. My allegiances are to myself and those whom I love. If you love christ, the same applies to you. Please be less judgemental, that is after all not your call, according to your book. That's very condascending, you know. [/QUOTE]
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